4 ms·

So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? And if your passions aren't things that people pay you for, you should, what? What other pro

by jmagoon 12y ago

So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? And if your passions aren't things that people pay you for, you should, what? What other profession do people have this absurd obsession with passion? I've never, ever heard someone put down an excellent carpenter because they are passionate about sailing and not cabinets. You can do something well, seek improvement in your trade, and be pleasant to be around without having to be passionate about "leveraging branded content for marketers to drive ROI in key demographics using your analytics platform", or whatever job you happen to have at the time.

mark-r 12y ago
If someone is passionate about woodworking, they will make better cabinets than someone who is not. Same with coding. It's not about the hours, at all.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  If they're working alone or with somebody who shares their passion, sure. What about the, oh, 90% of the rest of the time?
- Silhouette 12y ago
  If someone is skilled at woodworking, they will make better cabinets. No doubt there is a correlation between people who are passionate about something and people who are skilled at that thing. It seems likely to be a causal relationship, too. But it's the skill that makes the difference to the end result, not the passion. A diligent, conscientious woodworker might make just as good a cabinet as someone who loves to work wood. And a highly trained, professional woodworker will probably make much better cabinets than an enthusiastic amateur who is just having a go in their spare time.
- taeric 12y ago
  This seems like a dubious claim, to be honest. Just because someone is passionate about something, I see no reason to believe they are good at it. I would love to be proven wrong, as I am passionate about many things. However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. There is plenty of survivor bias in this claim, though. So I try not to use it as an indicator of anything.
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    >However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. Passion is the starting point to becoming exceptional.
    - taeric 12y ago
      Ironically, as someone with children, I am more open to the opposite direction. Practice can lead to passion if someone grows the necessary stimulus reward from it. This can continue on to continued practice and can feed to progress. Or it could lead to a dead end.
      - cunac 12y ago
        this 1000x , as parent with grown up children
smt88 12y ago
> So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? They might be good, but I wouldn't want to hire them if I had a choice. Why would I? It's just plain, unassailable fact that human beings are better at things that they practice at, and people practice things they enjoy. > What other profession do people have this absurd obsession with passion? All other professions should have it. Two people with equal levels of intelligence, talent, opportunities, etc. are going to perform completely differently if one is passionate and the other isn't. I've seen it firsthand many times, and many HN users are living examples. I'm a sought-after programmer because I've written dozens of web applications end-to-end. I love to do it, or I wouldn't have spent so much time and money on it in the past. A friend of mine graduated from an amazing CS school, works at one of the big tech firms, and finds his job interesting. But he clocks out and never codes recreationally. I have literally thousands of more hours of experience than he does, and it shows when we talk. He also never gets to write the whole stack at his job, so he doesn't know anything about architecture. He makes widgets by consuming someone else's API. > You can do something well, seek improvement in your trade, and be pleasant to be around without having to be passionate about "leveraging branded content for marketers to drive ROI in key demographics using your analytics platform", or whatever job you happen to have at the time. Again, I agree you can be good, but you won't be the best. And the job you're describing sounds like really mundane, tedious work. (Programming is that same kind of work to a lot of people. I don't have delusions about its nobility or whatever. Comparing it to plumbing, as Jeff Atwood did, is pretty apt.) The unfortunate thing is that not everyone is lucky enough to have a match between their interests and their job. Someone might be a once-in-a-generation puppeteer, but they have to get a day job as a bank teller. So I'm not criticizing anyone for lacking passion, nor am I saying you should have passion for a BS job like selling AdSense. You can certainly bring an enthusiasm or an excitement about reaching higher goals to those jobs. But actually loving the work is going to make you harder to burn out, happier, and a better performer than anyone who doesn't love it.
- kenko 12y ago
  > The unfortunate thing is that not everyone is lucky enough to have a match between their interests and their job. Someone might be a once-in-a-generation puppeteer, but they have to get a day job as a bank teller. Here's the thing, though. I have a lot of interests. I find my job interesting, but I also find out jazz and improvised music interesting, and I go to a lot of concerts. I find somewhat elaborate cooking projects interesting, and I set aside time for them. I find certain kinds of literature interesting and have tons of books I want to read and some I even am reading. I have writing projects (essays, not code-writing). I go out with my girlfriend. I keep a list of movies to watch. I have a wide online acquaintance I chat with. And, yeah, I have some side-projects I like to work on or think about, but unsurprisingly they're mostly sidelined. I code when I'm at work; there's lots more to interest me the rest of the time. Does this mean I won't be the best of the best of the best? Probably in my case yes, but I'm ok with that. I'm also skeptical that it's actually necessary to be so monomaniacal to be a damn good programmer.

by jmagoon 12y ago

mark-r 12y ago

If someone is passionate about woodworking, they will make better cabinets than someone who is not. Same with coding. It's not about the hours, at all.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
If they're working alone or with somebody who shares their passion, sure. What about the, oh, 90% of the rest of the time?
Silhouette 12y ago
If someone is skilled at woodworking, they will make better cabinets. No doubt there is a correlation between people who are passionate about something and people who are skilled at that thing. It seems likely to be a causal relationship, too. But it's the skill that makes the difference to the end result, not the passion. A diligent, conscientious woodworker might make just as good a cabinet as someone who loves to work wood. And a highly trained, professional woodworker will probably make much better cabinets than an enthusiastic amateur who is just having a go in their spare time.
taeric 12y ago
This seems like a dubious claim, to be honest. Just because someone is passionate about something, I see no reason to believe they are good at it. I would love to be proven wrong, as I am passionate about many things. However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. There is plenty of survivor bias in this claim, though. So I try not to use it as an indicator of anything.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >However, I find that those that are more practiced are usually far better than simply those that are passionate. Passion is the starting point to becoming exceptional.
  - taeric 12y ago
    Ironically, as someone with children, I am more open to the opposite direction. Practice can lead to passion if someone grows the necessary stimulus reward from it. This can continue on to continued practice and can feed to progress. Or it could lead to a dead end.
    - cunac 12y ago
      this 1000x , as parent with grown up children

smt88 12y ago

> So if someone doesn't have passion they can't be a good developer? They might be good, but I wouldn't want to hire them if I had a choice. Why would I? It's just plain, unassailable fact that human beings are better at things that they practice at, and people practice things they enjoy. > What other profession do people have this absurd obsession with passion? All other professions should have it. Two people with equal levels of intelligence, talent, opportunities, etc. are going to perform completely differently if one is passionate and the other isn't. I've seen it firsthand many times, and many HN users are living examples. I'm a sought-after programmer because I've written dozens of web applications end-to-end. I love to do it, or I wouldn't have spent so much time and money on it in the past. A friend of mine graduated from an amazing CS school, works at one of the big tech firms, and finds his job interesting. But he clocks out and never codes recreationally. I have literally thousands of more hours of experience than he does, and it shows when we talk. He also never gets to write the whole stack at his job, so he doesn't know anything about architecture. He makes widgets by consuming someone else's API. > You can do something well, seek improvement in your trade, and be pleasant to be around without having to be passionate about "leveraging branded content for marketers to drive ROI in key demographics using your analytics platform", or whatever job you happen to have at the time. Again, I agree you can be good, but you won't be the best. And the job you're describing sounds like really mundane, tedious work. (Programming is that same kind of work to a lot of people. I don't have delusions about its nobility or whatever. Comparing it to plumbing, as Jeff Atwood did, is pretty apt.) The unfortunate thing is that not everyone is lucky enough to have a match between their interests and their job. Someone might be a once-in-a-generation puppeteer, but they have to get a day job as a bank teller. So I'm not criticizing anyone for lacking passion, nor am I saying you should have passion for a BS job like selling AdSense. You can certainly bring an enthusiasm or an excitement about reaching higher goals to those jobs. But actually loving the work is going to make you harder to burn out, happier, and a better performer than anyone who doesn't love it.

kenko 12y ago
> The unfortunate thing is that not everyone is lucky enough to have a match between their interests and their job. Someone might be a once-in-a-generation puppeteer, but they have to get a day job as a bank teller. Here's the thing, though. I have a lot of interests. I find my job interesting, but I also find out jazz and improvised music interesting, and I go to a lot of concerts. I find somewhat elaborate cooking projects interesting, and I set aside time for them. I find certain kinds of literature interesting and have tons of books I want to read and some I even am reading. I have writing projects (essays, not code-writing). I go out with my girlfriend. I keep a list of movies to watch. I have a wide online acquaintance I chat with. And, yeah, I have some side-projects I like to work on or think about, but unsurprisingly they're mostly sidelined. I code when I'm at work; there's lots more to interest me the rest of the time. Does this mean I won't be the best of the best of the best? Probably in my case yes, but I'm ok with that. I'm also skeptical that it's actually necessary to be so monomaniacal to be a damn good programmer.