3 ms·

I used to feel the way you do, that “guys” is gender-neutral. However, I have encountered a large number of women who appear to be unaware that they are include

I used to feel the way you do, that “guys” is gender-neutral. However, I have encountered a large number of women who appear to be unaware that they are included when people say “you guys,” and they feel dismissed. I could lecture them about how wrong they are, but I could also use phrases that are not subject to misunderstanding. Things like this remind me of code. If I write something that is compiler-correct, but subject to misunderstanding, I could demand that people who find it confusing go read a few more books. Or I could write it to be read by my audience. With code, we’ve nearly universally decided that we write to be understood, and that the audience for our code is more important than whether we are “compiler correct.” JM2C, but that’s how I feel about the word “guys” being gender-neutral. It is dictionary-correct, but not audience-correct.

Jun8 12y ago
Good point, but I think you have it totally backwards: the usage in this case is audience-correct but not dictionary-correct. In fact, I think you guys is a good example where "language rules" have not caught up with usage. An important thing to understand is that language is not governed by a strict rules, such as compilers, it's based on a social contract, in fact Wittgenstein pushed this idea to its extreme by declaring that a word's meaning is its use (this idea is not without it's own problems, of course). I think the problem here is not that the people who object to the usage can understand the correct usage (in fact such usage is prevalent among the high-school crowd, which you can readily observe if you teach) but that they see it as sexist usage, e.g. similar to objecting to use of stewardess. I would suggest the correct approach here would give them the similar cases of y'all and you lot, not as a fry lecture but as a frank discussion.
tomjen3 12y ago
That is probably the best argument for it, but what alternative is there for a audience-correct gender neutral guys? Do we really have to borrow yeall?
- cstross 12y ago
  What's wrong with "people"? As in, "you people"? (Grammatically correct, non-colloquial, non-regional, and gender neutral.)
  - Jun8 12y ago
    The phrase you people is generally understood to have racial tones, e.g. http://mashable.com/2012/07/19/ann-romney-you-people/ http://mashable.com/2012/07/19/ann-romney-you-people/ or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-penwell/why-you-may-be-a-racist-e_b_6280776.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-penwell/why-you-may-be-a....
    - cstross 12y ago
      Planet Earth calling: if that's so, it's a specifically regional -- i.e. American -- thing. (I'm in Scotland, where it definitely doesn't.)
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    Hey dude can you help me? vs Hey person can you help me? Being colloquail is a feature, not a bug.

Jun8 12y ago

Good point, but I think you have it totally backwards: the usage in this case is audience-correct but not dictionary-correct. In fact, I think you guys is a good example where "language rules" have not caught up with usage. An important thing to understand is that language is not governed by a strict rules, such as compilers, it's based on a social contract, in fact Wittgenstein pushed this idea to its extreme by declaring that a word's meaning is its use (this idea is not without it's own problems, of course). I think the problem here is not that the people who object to the usage can understand the correct usage (in fact such usage is prevalent among the high-school crowd, which you can readily observe if you teach) but that they see it as sexist usage, e.g. similar to objecting to use of stewardess. I would suggest the correct approach here would give them the similar cases of y'all and you lot, not as a fry lecture but as a frank discussion.

tomjen3 12y ago

That is probably the best argument for it, but what alternative is there for a audience-correct gender neutral guys? Do we really have to borrow yeall?

cstross 12y ago
What's wrong with "people"? As in, "you people"? (Grammatically correct, non-colloquial, non-regional, and gender neutral.)
- Jun8 12y ago
  The phrase you people is generally understood to have racial tones, e.g. http://mashable.com/2012/07/19/ann-romney-you-people/ http://mashable.com/2012/07/19/ann-romney-you-people/ or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-penwell/why-you-may-be-a-racist-e_b_6280776.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-penwell/why-you-may-be-a....
  - cstross 12y ago
    Planet Earth calling: if that's so, it's a specifically regional -- i.e. American -- thing. (I'm in Scotland, where it definitely doesn't.)
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Hey dude can you help me? vs Hey person can you help me? Being colloquail is a feature, not a bug.