3 ms·

Or maybe they'll just do what Russia and China do and ignore the fuck out of any and all copyright shit.

by redcap 17y ago

khafra 17y ago
I wonder if learning to read simplified Chinese and joining Q-Zone would be even more effective than joining a Darknet, at least for some types of speech--and they probably don't care what you say about Western governments on there, either.
- lsc 17y ago
  Speaking as a small provider who gets these kinds of takedown notices, America is actually pretty good when it comes to political speech. Perhaps the best in the world. if you get a takedown for political speech, nearly any small provider would be happy to fight for you, because it's wonderful publicity. (I say small provider, because in order to fight for you, someone with enough authority to do so has got to see the takedown, and decide it is bogus. At large companies, the people reading the takedown often don't have authority to decide to fight or not. the same incentive applies, though, so if someone at a large corporation with authority saw a bogus takedown for political speech, they might make the same decision a small provider would.) I know I'd be happy to defend original political speech against a bogus takedown notice... not because I'm patriotic or altruistic, but because the publicity would be priceless. this is America, and my customers are nerds; being at the center of some scandal where the feds were trying to shut down some opposing political viewpoint would be incredible, from a self-promotion standpoint. America becomes a bad place when you want some kind of commercial speech (or when your 'political' speech is commercial... but even then, so long as it's clear you have a valid claim and are not just copying someone else's copywritten work, it's pretty easy to find a provider willing to fight for you in order to garner the positive publicity.) I might be willing to stand up for political speech, but I'm going to cooperate with taking down customers who want to violate trademarks to sell knock-off goods (knock-off goods are fine, just don't violate trademarks.) I'm also not going to spend a penny defending people who want to share movies or other copywritten data. Right or wrong, that's not a fight I can win here in America. I keep telling my customers this; if you want to say something politically controversial, do so here. if you want to copy the latest movies, etc... host in eastern Europe or china, and don't involve me.
  - Vivtek 17y ago
    OK, this is a pretty good point. What worries me - probably groundlessly - is that iffy point where the political and the commercial overlap. What if my political speech is about health care reform? It's not commercial, but it offends some pretty deep pockets - in that case, given enough lawyers (and there are always enough lawyers!), I worry that this kind of law could and would be used to shut me up. No burden of proof. The DMCA has some fraud provisions that allow this kind of thing to be whacked, but I don't know the actual whack statistics. Geeks don't like the government (right now) because there has been a successful couple of decades of anti-government propaganda. Would opposing Anthem be as good for your PR as that? I don't believe it would be. Yet Anthem is arguably a pretty dangerous actor in our current political sphere.
    - lsc 17y ago
      I agree that it is worrying. It's not a good law; the current situation is setup so that a risk averse hosting provider is likely to just take shit down when asked. But what I'm saying is that while there is a pretty big downside to standing up to bullshit takedown notices, there is also a pretty big upside. Would I personally take the risk? heh. well, it would depend on how strong I thought the case was. But probably; Like many entrepreneurs, I'm something of a glory hound and I have a moderate-to-high risk tolerance. My expectation would be that it wouldn't go to court. see what happened with ralph lauen and bong-boing: http://boingboing.net/2009/10/06/the-criticism-that-r.html http://boingboing.net/2009/10/06/the-criticism-that-r.html On the other hand, I do get a whole lot of obviously legitimate takedown notices. I've had several cases of some company selling knock off designer stuff who not only used the trade mark without permission, but who copied the legitimate website wholesale. I mean, I know jack about designer clothing, and I think knock-off goods are perfectly legitimate, but I think it's pretty important to protect trademarks.

Or maybe they'll just do what Russia and China do and ignore the fuck out of any and all copyright shit.

by redcap 17y ago

Or maybe they'll just do what Russia and China do and ignore the fuck out of any and all copyright shit.

I wonder if learning to read simplified Chinese and joining Q-Zone would be even more effective than joining a Darknet, at least for some types of speech--and they probably don't care what you say about Western governments on there, either.

lsc 17y ago
Speaking as a small provider who gets these kinds of takedown notices, America is actually pretty good when it comes to political speech. Perhaps the best in the world. if you get a takedown for political speech, nearly any small provider would be happy to fight for you, because it's wonderful publicity. (I say small provider, because in order to fight for you, someone with enough authority to do so has got to see the takedown, and decide it is bogus. At large companies, the people reading the takedown often don't have authority to decide to fight or not. the same incentive applies, though, so if someone at a large corporation with authority saw a bogus takedown for political speech, they might make the same decision a small provider would.) I know I'd be happy to defend original political speech against a bogus takedown notice... not because I'm patriotic or altruistic, but because the publicity would be priceless. this is America, and my customers are nerds; being at the center of some scandal where the feds were trying to shut down some opposing political viewpoint would be incredible, from a self-promotion standpoint. America becomes a bad place when you want some kind of commercial speech (or when your 'political' speech is commercial... but even then, so long as it's clear you have a valid claim and are not just copying someone else's copywritten work, it's pretty easy to find a provider willing to fight for you in order to garner the positive publicity.) I might be willing to stand up for political speech, but I'm going to cooperate with taking down customers who want to violate trademarks to sell knock-off goods (knock-off goods are fine, just don't violate trademarks.) I'm also not going to spend a penny defending people who want to share movies or other copywritten data. Right or wrong, that's not a fight I can win here in America. I keep telling my customers this; if you want to say something politically controversial, do so here. if you want to copy the latest movies, etc... host in eastern Europe or china, and don't involve me.
- Vivtek 17y ago
  OK, this is a pretty good point. What worries me - probably groundlessly - is that iffy point where the political and the commercial overlap. What if my political speech is about health care reform? It's not commercial, but it offends some pretty deep pockets - in that case, given enough lawyers (and there are always enough lawyers!), I worry that this kind of law could and would be used to shut me up. No burden of proof. The DMCA has some fraud provisions that allow this kind of thing to be whacked, but I don't know the actual whack statistics. Geeks don't like the government (right now) because there has been a successful couple of decades of anti-government propaganda. Would opposing Anthem be as good for your PR as that? I don't believe it would be. Yet Anthem is arguably a pretty dangerous actor in our current political sphere.
  - lsc 17y ago
    I agree that it is worrying. It's not a good law; the current situation is setup so that a risk averse hosting provider is likely to just take shit down when asked. But what I'm saying is that while there is a pretty big downside to standing up to bullshit takedown notices, there is also a pretty big upside. Would I personally take the risk? heh. well, it would depend on how strong I thought the case was. But probably; Like many entrepreneurs, I'm something of a glory hound and I have a moderate-to-high risk tolerance. My expectation would be that it wouldn't go to court. see what happened with ralph lauen and bong-boing: http://boingboing.net/2009/10/06/the-criticism-that-r.html http://boingboing.net/2009/10/06/the-criticism-that-r.html On the other hand, I do get a whole lot of obviously legitimate takedown notices. I've had several cases of some company selling knock off designer stuff who not only used the trade mark without permission, but who copied the legitimate website wholesale. I mean, I know jack about designer clothing, and I think knock-off goods are perfectly legitimate, but I think it's pretty important to protect trademarks.