5 ms·

c.f. this discussion of the same phenomenon on HN from 6 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 In

by patio11 12y ago

c.f. this discussion of the same phenomenon on HN from 6 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be allowed to rent in a building (gradually loosening) and b) a few institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into an apartment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company (introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance, guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for a year.

greggman 12y ago
The fact that it's an upfront payment makes it hard but I just looked at it as pre-payment of rent. 2 Year Contract Rent = X/26. Pay 2/26X to start Plus 1/26X a month for 24 months. Not sure what a guarantor fee is but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need. It's slightly different in Japan in that pretty much everyone needs it but as a foreigner with no Japanese credit history whatsoever it didn't seem unreasonable to be required to have a guarantor. Fortunately my company co-signed the first time and a friend's father the second. Then, there's plenty of apartments with none of those fees. Here's several just around 1 station for as little as $500 a month http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ There's thousands of other stations all with places to live at similar prices.
- patio11 12y ago
  but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need Respectfully, they are quite different. A co-signer is generally used only if the first party can't pay rent. A guarantor is used regardless of ability to pay and is explicitly designed to make sure that only people with appropriate social status are allowed to live in the building. Not sure what a guarantor fee If you're unable to come up with a Japanese company to guarantee you because of social ties, you can pay a company to do so. (This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar.) It's basically a surety bond: they promise my landlord one month's rent if I skip out. This bond costs me precisely one month's rent and is nonrefundable, much like an insurance premium. (Warren Buffet just said "Eff me that's the most profitable insurance policy in history.")
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnLen 12y ago
    This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar. So sometimes even paying someone isn't enough?
    - nandemo 12y ago
      Right. Some landlords/management companies don't accept guarantor companies.
  - GFischer 12y ago
    I work for an insurance company that sells that kind of surety, and it IS the most profitable product :)
  - greggman 12y ago
    I wouldn't call them quite different. Both are a 2nd party guaranteeing the rent and damage compensation. The other differences are minor.
- eloisant 12y ago
  An other difference is that they specifically ask for a Japanese guarantor. I had for guarantor a Frenchman who've been living in Japan for 10 years, spoke Japanese, had a full time job at a public research institute, but it was very hard to find an agency who accepted to sign a lease with him as a guarantor because he wasn't Japanese. The argument with the agent was often the same: - because if there's a problem, communication will be hard - but he speaks Japanese! And me too, as you can see! - yes, it would be fine for me, but the landlord wouldn't accept!
coding4all 12y ago
I know exactly what you mean. When it's all said and done, you end up spending between 6 and 8 months worth of rent before you even move in.
- mattm 12y ago
  Not too mention that furnished apartments are unheard of here so you may also need to spend money on a fridge, stove and air conditioner/heater.
  - nihonjon 12y ago
    Actually, weeklies and monthlies are common in cities. マンスリー、ウィクリー http://www.weekly-monthly.net/search/list.html?todoufuken_cd=13&sikuchouson_cd[]=103&cp[]=gw http://www.weekly-monthly.net/search/list.html?todoufuken_cd...
  - greggman 12y ago
    Unheard of? there's plenty of them. I'm renting one in nishi azabu for $2k a month.
    - mattm 12y ago
      Obviously, I should have added on "...outside of the major cities." I don't live in Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto.
- nihonjon 12y ago
  Actually quite a few places allow you to get in without such deposits. I've lived here since my last two years of college - totaling 8 years now - and never had an issue getting in with almost zero down aside from rent and guarantor company fee. My rents have ranged from $350/month to now $1600/month. On the private side: コンフォリア On the public support side (subsidized housing): UR (Urban Renewal) JKK Tokyo (東京都住宅供給公社)
nihonjon 12y ago
A bit sensationalist IMO. From my experiences costly Tokyo rentals are optional. During college I lived in central Tokyo on a budget that was much less than what I had in the States (120,000 jpy) - working near full time mind you. Started out by living in a few different netcafes for a month and moved into a humble flat with initial costs under 100,000 jpy. Now with a non-Japanese wife and no guarantor, we pick places where these fees are non-existent and landlords or organizations are okay with foreigners working non-traditional jobs using guarantor companies (monthly guarantor fee of around 2600 jpy). More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race.
- Paul_S 12y ago
  > More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race. I used to consider Japan as a potential destination country. The xenophobia will come back to haunt them. The cost of integration is outweighed by the economical benefits of a bigger workforce pool.
  - gaius 12y ago
    A country with any level of unemployment, already has a bigger workforce pool than it knows what to do with. I am not saying that xenophobia isn't bad, but it's a bit of a leap to say that Japan is in any danger of a shortage of workers.
    - fulafel 12y ago
      You can argue that countries should aim for full employment, so any unemployment by definition means they're mishandling things. But certainly increased labour supply doesn't automatically increase unemployment rate in market economies - it often has the opposite effect. Otherwise, smaller countries would tend to have low unemployment and populous countries would have high unemployment!
  - amyjess 12y ago
    Why do you think Japan's population is in a death spiral? Birth rates are falling across the board in the first world, but unlike the west, they have few immigrants to make up for it.
GreaterFool 12y ago
Property market in Japan is strange but I still find it much better than where I live now (Singapore). When I stayed in Tokyo all buildings I've looked at were owned by big corporations. The upside was that rent was quite reasonable. Also one can always make an offer. Those companies don't go for a bidding war. The property will go to the first person that makes an offer provided that both the person and the offer are 'acceptable', rather than the highest bidder. The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you. If I tried to rent by myself I have a feeling that I would be refused even if I offered to pay the whole lease (1 year or 2 years) upfront... And while rent itself is not bad there are some crazy cost to deal with. Moving from company A to company B and changing the name on the lease? That's monthly rent gone! And there's the "key money" (1 month rent as a fixed fee when signing the lease). Fortunately one can often find "no key money deals". I will be moving back to Japan soon so fingers crossed. Hopefully I'll manage to work something out.
- robzyb 12y ago
  > The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you. By finding a real estate agent that has experience with foreigners. They will know which companies are happy renting to foreigners, and also guide you through the process. And heck, if you're going to be paying agent fees (which in Tokyo, you probably are) you may as well get some value for the fees. If anyone wants a recommendation for a real estate agent, email me at my HN username at gmail.
- vetler 12y ago
  What's it like in Singapore?
  - GreaterFool 12y ago
    The rental prices in Singapore are very high. If I wanted to rent a studio flat close to where I work I would have to pay S$3500+ and it wouldn't be easy to find. To live alone it is very expensive; sharing is a bit better and that's what I opted for. A lot of Tokyo apartments are small and well designed and the quality of materials is fantastic. They are also very well maintained. Apartments in older buildings still look great. And the prices are reasonable. Varying the size / distance to the centre / condition of the building gives you a wide spectrum. Something should fit your pocket. In Singapore the options are much more limited. I'd rather take a well designed 20-30m^2 studio than overpay for 50m^2; for me that's a waste of space. I don't need a small and mostly useless condo gym; I'd rather pay for a proper gym membership. Swimming pool might seem nice initially but think about how much you pay for it in rent (whether you use it or not). Unfortunately all condos have "amenities". And that "added value" isn't free. There's also a crazy "double agent" system in place in Singapore. When you see an ad online it is not uncommon that it has been placed by "agent" that has nothing to do with the landlord. They insert themselves between you and the landlord's agent. So you call them up and it turns out they might not even know on which floor the apartment is on! (happened to me more than once). Because the other agent didn't tell them... And as you might expect both agents expect to be paid. This is usually 1 month per year of lease, even on your re-contract. You're supposed to pay your agent off and the landlord is supposed to pay their agent off. Another weird thing is that you'll never see the photos of the apartments online. Most of the time the photos are just generic filler. The agents post their own mugshots though (crazy, right?). Finding a flat in Singapore wasn't a pleasant experience.
rmc 12y ago
This is an example of how expensive it is to be poor. Leaving cheaply (by getting cheaper accomodation) costs money. And many people can't afford to earn enough to break out of it. (BTW Germany has expensive costs with moving. 3 to 6 months rent up front is very common)
- raverbashing 12y ago
  But this is the rental agent commission (Provision), there are several choices without provision Also, it's the "cold rent" (without any additions)
  - ido 12y ago
    Yep, in Germany 3-6 months is normally a deposit (Kaution) that you get back when you move out (so unless it's your first place you can roll your previous apartment's deposit into the new one's). It's not unusual to find apartments without a commission or with a commission of 1-2 months.
- erikb 12y ago
  Also after the first apartment it's a little less overhead because you get the money from one landlord and give it to the next.

by patio11 12y ago

greggman 12y ago

The fact that it's an upfront payment makes it hard but I just looked at it as pre-payment of rent. 2 Year Contract Rent = X/26. Pay 2/26X to start Plus 1/26X a month for 24 months. Not sure what a guarantor fee is but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need. It's slightly different in Japan in that pretty much everyone needs it but as a foreigner with no Japanese credit history whatsoever it didn't seem unreasonable to be required to have a guarantor. Fortunately my company co-signed the first time and a friend's father the second. Then, there's plenty of apartments with none of those fees. Here's several just around 1 station for as little as $500 a month http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ There's thousands of other stations all with places to live at similar prices.

patio11 12y ago
but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need Respectfully, they are quite different. A co-signer is generally used only if the first party can't pay rent. A guarantor is used regardless of ability to pay and is explicitly designed to make sure that only people with appropriate social status are allowed to live in the building. Not sure what a guarantor fee If you're unable to come up with a Japanese company to guarantee you because of social ties, you can pay a company to do so. (This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar.) It's basically a surety bond: they promise my landlord one month's rent if I skip out. This bond costs me precisely one month's rent and is nonrefundable, much like an insurance premium. (Warren Buffet just said "Eff me that's the most profitable insurance policy in history.")
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnLen 12y ago
  This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar. So sometimes even paying someone isn't enough?
  - nandemo 12y ago
    Right. Some landlords/management companies don't accept guarantor companies.
- GFischer 12y ago
  I work for an insurance company that sells that kind of surety, and it IS the most profitable product :)
- greggman 12y ago
  I wouldn't call them quite different. Both are a 2nd party guaranteeing the rent and damage compensation. The other differences are minor.
eloisant 12y ago
An other difference is that they specifically ask for a Japanese guarantor. I had for guarantor a Frenchman who've been living in Japan for 10 years, spoke Japanese, had a full time job at a public research institute, but it was very hard to find an agency who accepted to sign a lease with him as a guarantor because he wasn't Japanese. The argument with the agent was often the same: - because if there's a problem, communication will be hard - but he speaks Japanese! And me too, as you can see! - yes, it would be fine for me, but the landlord wouldn't accept!

coding4all 12y ago

I know exactly what you mean. When it's all said and done, you end up spending between 6 and 8 months worth of rent before you even move in.

mattm 12y ago
Not too mention that furnished apartments are unheard of here so you may also need to spend money on a fridge, stove and air conditioner/heater.
- nihonjon 12y ago
  Actually, weeklies and monthlies are common in cities. マンスリー、ウィクリー http://www.weekly-monthly.net/search/list.html?todoufuken_cd=13&sikuchouson_cd[]=103&cp[]=gw http://www.weekly-monthly.net/search/list.html?todoufuken_cd...
- greggman 12y ago
  Unheard of? there's plenty of them. I'm renting one in nishi azabu for $2k a month.
  - mattm 12y ago
    Obviously, I should have added on "...outside of the major cities." I don't live in Tokyo/Osaka/Kyoto.
nihonjon 12y ago
Actually quite a few places allow you to get in without such deposits. I've lived here since my last two years of college - totaling 8 years now - and never had an issue getting in with almost zero down aside from rent and guarantor company fee. My rents have ranged from $350/month to now $1600/month. On the private side: コンフォリア On the public support side (subsidized housing): UR (Urban Renewal) JKK Tokyo (東京都住宅供給公社)

nihonjon 12y ago

A bit sensationalist IMO. From my experiences costly Tokyo rentals are optional. During college I lived in central Tokyo on a budget that was much less than what I had in the States (120,000 jpy) - working near full time mind you. Started out by living in a few different netcafes for a month and moved into a humble flat with initial costs under 100,000 jpy. Now with a non-Japanese wife and no guarantor, we pick places where these fees are non-existent and landlords or organizations are okay with foreigners working non-traditional jobs using guarantor companies (monthly guarantor fee of around 2600 jpy). More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race.

Paul_S 12y ago
> More so than the deposits, it sucks I get discriminated against for my race. I used to consider Japan as a potential destination country. The xenophobia will come back to haunt them. The cost of integration is outweighed by the economical benefits of a bigger workforce pool.
- gaius 12y ago
  A country with any level of unemployment, already has a bigger workforce pool than it knows what to do with. I am not saying that xenophobia isn't bad, but it's a bit of a leap to say that Japan is in any danger of a shortage of workers.
  - fulafel 12y ago
    You can argue that countries should aim for full employment, so any unemployment by definition means they're mishandling things. But certainly increased labour supply doesn't automatically increase unemployment rate in market economies - it often has the opposite effect. Otherwise, smaller countries would tend to have low unemployment and populous countries would have high unemployment!
- amyjess 12y ago
  Why do you think Japan's population is in a death spiral? Birth rates are falling across the board in the first world, but unlike the west, they have few immigrants to make up for it.

GreaterFool 12y ago

Property market in Japan is strange but I still find it much better than where I live now (Singapore). When I stayed in Tokyo all buildings I've looked at were owned by big corporations. The upside was that rent was quite reasonable. Also one can always make an offer. Those companies don't go for a bidding war. The property will go to the first person that makes an offer provided that both the person and the offer are 'acceptable', rather than the highest bidder. The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you. If I tried to rent by myself I have a feeling that I would be refused even if I offered to pay the whole lease (1 year or 2 years) upfront... And while rent itself is not bad there are some crazy cost to deal with. Moving from company A to company B and changing the name on the lease? That's monthly rent gone! And there's the "key money" (1 month rent as a fixed fee when signing the lease). Fortunately one can often find "no key money deals". I will be moving back to Japan soon so fingers crossed. Hopefully I'll manage to work something out.

robzyb 12y ago
> The rental process can be quite complicated though. I can't even begin to imagine how to rent a flat directly without getting everything arranged through the company that hired you. By finding a real estate agent that has experience with foreigners. They will know which companies are happy renting to foreigners, and also guide you through the process. And heck, if you're going to be paying agent fees (which in Tokyo, you probably are) you may as well get some value for the fees. If anyone wants a recommendation for a real estate agent, email me at my HN username at gmail.
vetler 12y ago
What's it like in Singapore?
- GreaterFool 12y ago
  The rental prices in Singapore are very high. If I wanted to rent a studio flat close to where I work I would have to pay S$3500+ and it wouldn't be easy to find. To live alone it is very expensive; sharing is a bit better and that's what I opted for. A lot of Tokyo apartments are small and well designed and the quality of materials is fantastic. They are also very well maintained. Apartments in older buildings still look great. And the prices are reasonable. Varying the size / distance to the centre / condition of the building gives you a wide spectrum. Something should fit your pocket. In Singapore the options are much more limited. I'd rather take a well designed 20-30m^2 studio than overpay for 50m^2; for me that's a waste of space. I don't need a small and mostly useless condo gym; I'd rather pay for a proper gym membership. Swimming pool might seem nice initially but think about how much you pay for it in rent (whether you use it or not). Unfortunately all condos have "amenities". And that "added value" isn't free. There's also a crazy "double agent" system in place in Singapore. When you see an ad online it is not uncommon that it has been placed by "agent" that has nothing to do with the landlord. They insert themselves between you and the landlord's agent. So you call them up and it turns out they might not even know on which floor the apartment is on! (happened to me more than once). Because the other agent didn't tell them... And as you might expect both agents expect to be paid. This is usually 1 month per year of lease, even on your re-contract. You're supposed to pay your agent off and the landlord is supposed to pay their agent off. Another weird thing is that you'll never see the photos of the apartments online. Most of the time the photos are just generic filler. The agents post their own mugshots though (crazy, right?). Finding a flat in Singapore wasn't a pleasant experience.

rmc 12y ago

This is an example of how expensive it is to be poor. Leaving cheaply (by getting cheaper accomodation) costs money. And many people can't afford to earn enough to break out of it. (BTW Germany has expensive costs with moving. 3 to 6 months rent up front is very common)

raverbashing 12y ago
But this is the rental agent commission (Provision), there are several choices without provision Also, it's the "cold rent" (without any additions)
- ido 12y ago
  Yep, in Germany 3-6 months is normally a deposit (Kaution) that you get back when you move out (so unless it's your first place you can roll your previous apartment's deposit into the new one's). It's not unusual to find apartments without a commission or with a commission of 1-2 months.
erikb 12y ago
Also after the first apartment it's a little less overhead because you get the money from one landlord and give it to the next.