9 ms·

Internet Cafe Refugees – Japan's Disposable Workers

126 points by doppp 12y ago

jmadsen 12y ago
The "key money" is an archaic thing that really needs to be addressed. There's been a little bit of loosening up on it, but it is still quite obnoxious the amount you have to pay for the "privilege" of a lease.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  Yeah, totally agree. This is so ridiculous. Japan is one of the only developed countries where owners have about everything to their advantage.
  - VLM 12y ago
    Stereotypically this is a symptom of strong renters rights laws. Its a tradeoff. I've rented in places where renters are treated little better than cattle, at least legally, and you show up with first and last in a cashiers check, they run a credit check while you wait (which I never had a problem with although I assume people must occasionally fail?), sign a one year lease, they hand you the keys, whole process is done in like 10 minutes. Then again if you don't pay up the judge will issue an eviction before the month is out, seen those papers posted on doors. And that's precisely why they'll rent on the spot to almost anyone with a pulse no hassle. Then again I've heard of places where women with children can't be legally evicted because the judges just won't approve, any code violation or maint issue means rent goes into escrow not to the owner, endless .gov permits and hassle. Thats nice that .gov has your back when there's a problem, but when there isn't a problem, you end up with key fees and guarantors and endless paperwork and social standing stuff. Given that experience, I would assume Japan is some kind of renters paradise when/if a problem occurs, whereas at a net cafe in Japan if a problem occurs either you walk out or are physically tossed out, although I didn't read anything in the article on that topic (Or I missed it if it was there)
  - glandium 12y ago
    Japan is also (one of?) the only developed country where owners see the value of their property decrease with time.
patio11 12y ago
c.f. this discussion of the same phenomenon on HN from 6 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be allowed to rent in a building (gradually loosening) and b) a few institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into an apartment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company (introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance, guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for a year.
- greggman 12y ago
  The fact that it's an upfront payment makes it hard but I just looked at it as pre-payment of rent. 2 Year Contract Rent = X/26. Pay 2/26X to start Plus 1/26X a month for 24 months. Not sure what a guarantor fee is but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need. It's slightly different in Japan in that pretty much everyone needs it but as a foreigner with no Japanese credit history whatsoever it didn't seem unreasonable to be required to have a guarantor. Fortunately my company co-signed the first time and a friend's father the second. Then, there's plenty of apartments with none of those fees. Here's several just around 1 station for as little as $500 a month http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ There's thousands of other stations all with places to live at similar prices.
  - patio11 12y ago
    but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need Respectfully, they are quite different. A co-signer is generally used only if the first party can't pay rent. A guarantor is used regardless of ability to pay and is explicitly designed to make sure that only people with appropriate social status are allowed to live in the building. Not sure what a guarantor fee If you're unable to come up with a Japanese company to guarantee you because of social ties, you can pay a company to do so. (This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar.) It's basically a surety bond: they promise my landlord one month's rent if I skip out. This bond costs me precisely one month's rent and is nonrefundable, much like an insurance premium. (Warren Buffet just said "Eff me that's the most profitable insurance policy in history.")
cup 12y ago
I've stayed in one of these overnight Japanese net cafes. They're absolutely amazing, with TV's libraries, a collection of DVDs, games and magazines. You can pay to shower, theres even a kitchen with food. That being said, It's a novelty and definitely something I wouldn't want to experience night after night.
- wingerlang 12y ago
  Agreed. I stayed in various ones for, in total, a week some year(s) ago. I loved it, but I think doing it for an actual living situation it would get tiresome real fast.
- Red_Tarsius 12y ago
  Off Topic: When I was in Sapporo, I spent a lot of time in Internet Cafes. I LOVED them. Huge up-to-date library, fast internet connection, free lunch, shower, sofa... This place was in the center of the city. Hotels in the same area would have costed 3/4 times that. The only downside is the smoke. Too many people were smoking and polluting the cafe. As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area.
  - subleq 12y ago
    > As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area. Is that backwards?
noobermin 12y ago
I just spent the last couple of minutes watching those videos. That "hostess girls" really got me. The US is by no means perfect, but to think that human beings could be stuck in such a situation (to literally be worked to death) seems obscene. Here comes my Ignorant American side talking, but to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me.
- hugozap 12y ago
  > to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me. What about the lack of opportunity for black people in the US and the fact that most of the prison population is black?, both opportunity and freedom lacking here too. Just different contexts and cultures.
  - steveeq1 12y ago
    > that most of the prison population is black Maybe it's because black people cause a disproportionate amount of crime.
  - frozenport 12y ago
    What about it? In Japan you need 13k on hand to get an apartment. Haven't seen that anywhere.
  - zo1 12y ago
    What lack of opportunity are you speaking of? I'm not trying to say there is/isn't. But I'm curious how you would phrase/state it? I find it's often much easier to discuss something when it's phrased as a proposition, rather than a blanket assumption that we must either accept, or argue with the person stating it.
  - Agustus 12y ago
    It is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of dual parent opportunities that can place the proper amount of time into their children to develop them for school and career opportunities. Taking a step back from race, let us focus it on one parent families. While it is possible to successfully raise a child in a one-parent family it is a difficult variable; there is a reason why the news includes single parent as a hardship in their tales. Locating child-care, staying home with a kid who is sick and cannot attend day care, one income wages, and a host of other variables create issues for allocating the one-on-one time necessary to develop the ABC's, numbers, and mannerisms that a two-parent family is capable of; be they gay, straight, black, white, asiatic, hispanic. The question is how can we, as a society, encourage two-parent families, so we can get people a good start to be successful? On the website, there are societal factors within Japan that are creating suicidal individuals without any hope for the future: * Salary careers are no longer as optimum as before, Mr. Tadayuki is taking the same action as those of second born individuals from centuries past, seeking opportunities in other lands. Staying in Japan only creates suicidal thoughts. * Hostess girls fall into the same trap as strippers, there is so much up front monies to be made that pursuing a career seems dubious for those who are not able to see long term benefits or have requirements that necessitate large up-front monies (drug habits). Getting them off of these careers would require a government or privately run stripper wean off program.
euske 12y ago
As far as I remember, the term "Net-cafe Refugee" was already common in early 2000s, but I feel that Japan hasn't done much to reduce the number of them (in a good way). And we were too busy paying attention to more sensational things. As a Japanese citizen, I welcome these reports. It's repeatedly shown that we have no self-correction ability, and I think being exposed and embarrassed in front of the world is one of few effective ways to change this society. We need more of this.
- busterarm 12y ago
  Forgive me if I'm simply being ignorant in my questioning here. As a foreigner with interest in your country but an obviously limited perspective, I have noticed what seems to be a growing trend there in willingness to publicly challenge traditions and institutions and to draw attention to societal problems. This strikes me as being very "unjapanese". While I can see evidence of it going back to the '50s, it seems to be an attitude that has become much more common in the last 10 years or so. Am I totally misunderstanding this, and if not, do you have a positive outlook on some large cultural shift fixing many of these problems in the near-future? "Revolution happens in the mind" and all... As a side note, from the little bit that I've seen, the amount of attention that the hikikomori phenomenon has received seems to have resulted in some positive steps to dealing with mental health issues like that and it looks like Japan is ahead of other countries that have and don't admit to the same problem.
  - gkanai 12y ago
    There were arguably more challenges to traditions and institutions in decades past than in today's Japan. Student anti-war riots in the late 60s, etc. Today there are limited protests, especially strong after Fukushima, but none as strong as what happened in 1969.
    - busterarm 12y ago
      Hmm, a very good point and counterargument. I've come across this once or twice before but I realize I know frustratingly little about the student protests there in '69. Thanks @gen! (Been to your blog before for motorcycle reasons. Big fan!)
techsupporter 12y ago
These sound like aPodments in Seattle, though even smaller: accommodations for people who either can't afford or don't want to live in "traditional" units.
- icebraining 12y ago
  They seem great to me, but sheesh, $775/month? Is the city that expensive?
  - fennecfoxen 12y ago
    http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775 http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775 (+ click Map) Not a whole lot of options at that price -- at least, not anywhere near the city center. Things are a little better in, like, Tacoma :P
minikomi 12y ago
Interesting. 230,000 seems a surprisingly average wage to be stuck in a net cafe. I think there may be other factors at play - perhaps the part time nature of his job prevents him from being accepted into apartments. edit: Just my opinion, but I'd say ¥1,000,000 is ... overestimating it a fair bit. Assuming 70,000 rent - a little less than what I pay in a 1DK quite near Shinjuku/Shibuya - 2 months cleaning deposit, 1 month rent in advance, 1 month to the agent, 1 month guarantor, ~20,000 disaster insurance fees, ~5万 to get very basic furnishings (Nittori delivers!) - comes in under half that. Key money seems to be less and less common. More often than not, it's only one month, or zero with a 2 month cleaning fee.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  As the article says, when you're temping and have an irregular income, you need to pay more in guarantor fees, advance rent etc to make up for your perceived/actual lack of stability.
  - VLM 12y ago
    Also a close reading of the article shows the intro dude was getting over twice the income of his fellow cafe residents. So if overtime goes away and they only need him 3 days/week instead of current 6 days/week, and maybe he loses his temp job entirely for a few months, or gets stuck at 1/2 average income instead of twice for awhile... he could be homeless and penniless on the street in just a couple months. So saving up a very large cushion sounds wise to me. A long time ago I went into my first bachelor pad expecting to spend X in the first month and ended up spending 2X. Things add up!
  - Kurtz79 12y ago
    patio11 wrote an amazing post of work culture in Japan. http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ Basically if you are a salaryman in some respected company (to which you are prepared to sell your soul for the rest of your life) getting an apartment, a bank account or really any service is trivial, since it is assumed that the company guarantees for you. If you are NOT backed up by a major company you have more or less the status of a bum, and people will refuse altogheter of renting to you, at any condition, or ask for crazy guarantees.
JohnLen 12y ago
Is this just a market inefficiency? A cubicle with electricity and internet should cost more than a cubicle with bed and nothing else.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  Of course it is (probably aided by tenancy law) But when the owners/managers are old people locked in their cultural assumptions this kind of crap happens Maybe it's time for an occidental company to start providing such service.
- rwallace 12y ago
  If you're providing a cubicle with bed and available showers, laundry service and suchlike, the added cost of providing electricity and Internet is small whereas the added value is large, so it strikes me as efficient.
saint_fiasco 12y ago
The worst part I think is that, even though they don't have family in the city, work is hard to find, and the rent is very expensive, they still won't leave Tokio. Does that mean the other cities are worse?
peter303 12y ago
I've read several articles about some Silicon Valley employees living in their cars. Especially if the company provides most everything else- food, showers, entertainment. Why spend huge amounts on apartment you just sleep in? This happened at MIT and Stanford too when I was there. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google-staff-shun-homes-and-live-in-car-park.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google...
- mvid 12y ago
  Is there anything in your life other than work at that point? You are either at work or a bunk bed on wheels. How is that healthy?
Kurtz79 12y ago
It is dishonarable in Japan to live in your parents' home until you find something stable ? Or to live in a flatshare ? The average salary for those Coffee Shop dwellers is higher than a starting salary for many jobs in Southern Europe. Even if the cost of living is inferior to Tokyo, it's still not enough to rent an apartment by yourself for most people, so many 20something stay at their parents' home until they saved enough to move out, or found a better job, of just find a flatshare. I know it's cultural, and not very flattering for those still living off their parents in their mid-late twenties, but given the alternative...

126 points by doppp 12y ago

The "key money" is an archaic thing that really needs to be addressed. There's been a little bit of loosening up on it, but it is still quite obnoxious the amount you have to pay for the "privilege" of a lease.

ekianjo 12y ago
Yeah, totally agree. This is so ridiculous. Japan is one of the only developed countries where owners have about everything to their advantage.
- VLM 12y ago
  Stereotypically this is a symptom of strong renters rights laws. Its a tradeoff. I've rented in places where renters are treated little better than cattle, at least legally, and you show up with first and last in a cashiers check, they run a credit check while you wait (which I never had a problem with although I assume people must occasionally fail?), sign a one year lease, they hand you the keys, whole process is done in like 10 minutes. Then again if you don't pay up the judge will issue an eviction before the month is out, seen those papers posted on doors. And that's precisely why they'll rent on the spot to almost anyone with a pulse no hassle. Then again I've heard of places where women with children can't be legally evicted because the judges just won't approve, any code violation or maint issue means rent goes into escrow not to the owner, endless .gov permits and hassle. Thats nice that .gov has your back when there's a problem, but when there isn't a problem, you end up with key fees and guarantors and endless paperwork and social standing stuff. Given that experience, I would assume Japan is some kind of renters paradise when/if a problem occurs, whereas at a net cafe in Japan if a problem occurs either you walk out or are physically tossed out, although I didn't read anything in the article on that topic (Or I missed it if it was there)
- glandium 12y ago
  Japan is also (one of?) the only developed country where owners see the value of their property decrease with time.

patio11 12y ago

c.f. this discussion of the same phenomenon on HN from 6 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=551794 In particular, if you want to understand why someone would opt for paying more daily rather than less monthly, the big non-obvious factors are a) landlords have a very particular set of requirements regarding social status to be allowed to rent in a building (gradually loosening) and b) a few institutions like key-money balloon the upfront payment required to move into an apartment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552175 When we moved to Tokyo, my wire to the new apartment's management company (introduction fee, key money, deposit, first month's rent, insurance, guarantor fee) was, well, call it 50% of a young salaryman's take home pay for a year.

greggman 12y ago
The fact that it's an upfront payment makes it hard but I just looked at it as pre-payment of rent. 2 Year Contract Rent = X/26. Pay 2/26X to start Plus 1/26X a month for 24 months. Not sure what a guarantor fee is but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need. It's slightly different in Japan in that pretty much everyone needs it but as a foreigner with no Japanese credit history whatsoever it didn't seem unreasonable to be required to have a guarantor. Fortunately my company co-signed the first time and a friend's father the second. Then, there's plenty of apartments with none of those fees. Here's several just around 1 station for as little as $500 a month http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ http://zero.chintai.net/double/tokyo/ensen/102050012/ There's thousands of other stations all with places to live at similar prices.
- patio11 12y ago
  but a guarantor is no different than a co-signer in America which lots of young people need Respectfully, they are quite different. A co-signer is generally used only if the first party can't pay rent. A guarantor is used regardless of ability to pay and is explicitly designed to make sure that only people with appropriate social status are allowed to live in the building. Not sure what a guarantor fee If you're unable to come up with a Japanese company to guarantee you because of social ties, you can pay a company to do so. (This is, ahem, often necessary but insufficient to pass the must-be-at-least-this-social-status-to-rent bar.) It's basically a surety bond: they promise my landlord one month's rent if I skip out. This bond costs me precisely one month's rent and is nonrefundable, much like an insurance premium. (Warren Buffet just said "Eff me that's the most profitable insurance policy in history.")

cup 12y ago

I've stayed in one of these overnight Japanese net cafes. They're absolutely amazing, with TV's libraries, a collection of DVDs, games and magazines. You can pay to shower, theres even a kitchen with food. That being said, It's a novelty and definitely something I wouldn't want to experience night after night.

wingerlang 12y ago
Agreed. I stayed in various ones for, in total, a week some year(s) ago. I loved it, but I think doing it for an actual living situation it would get tiresome real fast.
Red_Tarsius 12y ago
Off Topic: When I was in Sapporo, I spent a lot of time in Internet Cafes. I LOVED them. Huge up-to-date library, fast internet connection, free lunch, shower, sofa... This place was in the center of the city. Hotels in the same area would have costed 3/4 times that. The only downside is the smoke. Too many people were smoking and polluting the cafe. As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area.
- subleq 12y ago
  > As a minor, I could not go to the non-smoking area. Is that backwards?

noobermin 12y ago

I just spent the last couple of minutes watching those videos. That "hostess girls" really got me. The US is by no means perfect, but to think that human beings could be stuck in such a situation (to literally be worked to death) seems obscene. Here comes my Ignorant American side talking, but to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me.

hugozap 12y ago
> to even imagine such lack of opportunity and freedom in a first world country makes no sense to me. What about the lack of opportunity for black people in the US and the fact that most of the prison population is black?, both opportunity and freedom lacking here too. Just different contexts and cultures.
- steveeq1 12y ago
  > that most of the prison population is black Maybe it's because black people cause a disproportionate amount of crime.
- frozenport 12y ago
  What about it? In Japan you need 13k on hand to get an apartment. Haven't seen that anywhere.
- zo1 12y ago
  What lack of opportunity are you speaking of? I'm not trying to say there is/isn't. But I'm curious how you would phrase/state it? I find it's often much easier to discuss something when it's phrased as a proposition, rather than a blanket assumption that we must either accept, or argue with the person stating it.
- Agustus 12y ago
  It is not a lack of opportunity, it is a lack of dual parent opportunities that can place the proper amount of time into their children to develop them for school and career opportunities. Taking a step back from race, let us focus it on one parent families. While it is possible to successfully raise a child in a one-parent family it is a difficult variable; there is a reason why the news includes single parent as a hardship in their tales. Locating child-care, staying home with a kid who is sick and cannot attend day care, one income wages, and a host of other variables create issues for allocating the one-on-one time necessary to develop the ABC's, numbers, and mannerisms that a two-parent family is capable of; be they gay, straight, black, white, asiatic, hispanic. The question is how can we, as a society, encourage two-parent families, so we can get people a good start to be successful? On the website, there are societal factors within Japan that are creating suicidal individuals without any hope for the future: * Salary careers are no longer as optimum as before, Mr. Tadayuki is taking the same action as those of second born individuals from centuries past, seeking opportunities in other lands. Staying in Japan only creates suicidal thoughts. * Hostess girls fall into the same trap as strippers, there is so much up front monies to be made that pursuing a career seems dubious for those who are not able to see long term benefits or have requirements that necessitate large up-front monies (drug habits). Getting them off of these careers would require a government or privately run stripper wean off program.

euske 12y ago

As far as I remember, the term "Net-cafe Refugee" was already common in early 2000s, but I feel that Japan hasn't done much to reduce the number of them (in a good way). And we were too busy paying attention to more sensational things. As a Japanese citizen, I welcome these reports. It's repeatedly shown that we have no self-correction ability, and I think being exposed and embarrassed in front of the world is one of few effective ways to change this society. We need more of this.

busterarm 12y ago
Forgive me if I'm simply being ignorant in my questioning here. As a foreigner with interest in your country but an obviously limited perspective, I have noticed what seems to be a growing trend there in willingness to publicly challenge traditions and institutions and to draw attention to societal problems. This strikes me as being very "unjapanese". While I can see evidence of it going back to the '50s, it seems to be an attitude that has become much more common in the last 10 years or so. Am I totally misunderstanding this, and if not, do you have a positive outlook on some large cultural shift fixing many of these problems in the near-future? "Revolution happens in the mind" and all... As a side note, from the little bit that I've seen, the amount of attention that the hikikomori phenomenon has received seems to have resulted in some positive steps to dealing with mental health issues like that and it looks like Japan is ahead of other countries that have and don't admit to the same problem.
- gkanai 12y ago
  There were arguably more challenges to traditions and institutions in decades past than in today's Japan. Student anti-war riots in the late 60s, etc. Today there are limited protests, especially strong after Fukushima, but none as strong as what happened in 1969.
  - busterarm 12y ago
    Hmm, a very good point and counterargument. I've come across this once or twice before but I realize I know frustratingly little about the student protests there in '69. Thanks @gen! (Been to your blog before for motorcycle reasons. Big fan!)

techsupporter 12y ago

These sound like aPodments in Seattle, though even smaller: accommodations for people who either can't afford or don't want to live in "traditional" units.

icebraining 12y ago
They seem great to me, but sheesh, $775/month? Is the city that expensive?
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775 http://seattle.craigslist.org/search/apa?maxAsk=775 (+ click Map) Not a whole lot of options at that price -- at least, not anywhere near the city center. Things are a little better in, like, Tacoma :P

minikomi 12y ago

Interesting. 230,000 seems a surprisingly average wage to be stuck in a net cafe. I think there may be other factors at play - perhaps the part time nature of his job prevents him from being accepted into apartments. edit: Just my opinion, but I'd say ¥1,000,000 is ... overestimating it a fair bit. Assuming 70,000 rent - a little less than what I pay in a 1DK quite near Shinjuku/Shibuya - 2 months cleaning deposit, 1 month rent in advance, 1 month to the agent, 1 month guarantor, ~20,000 disaster insurance fees, ~5万 to get very basic furnishings (Nittori delivers!) - comes in under half that. Key money seems to be less and less common. More often than not, it's only one month, or zero with a 2 month cleaning fee.

jpatokal 12y ago
As the article says, when you're temping and have an irregular income, you need to pay more in guarantor fees, advance rent etc to make up for your perceived/actual lack of stability.
- VLM 12y ago
  Also a close reading of the article shows the intro dude was getting over twice the income of his fellow cafe residents. So if overtime goes away and they only need him 3 days/week instead of current 6 days/week, and maybe he loses his temp job entirely for a few months, or gets stuck at 1/2 average income instead of twice for awhile... he could be homeless and penniless on the street in just a couple months. So saving up a very large cushion sounds wise to me. A long time ago I went into my first bachelor pad expecting to spend X in the first month and ended up spending 2X. Things add up!
- Kurtz79 12y ago
  patio11 wrote an amazing post of work culture in Japan. http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ Basically if you are a salaryman in some respected company (to which you are prepared to sell your soul for the rest of your life) getting an apartment, a bank account or really any service is trivial, since it is assumed that the company guarantees for you. If you are NOT backed up by a major company you have more or less the status of a bum, and people will refuse altogheter of renting to you, at any condition, or ask for crazy guarantees.

JohnLen 12y ago

Is this just a market inefficiency? A cubicle with electricity and internet should cost more than a cubicle with bed and nothing else.

raverbashing 12y ago
Of course it is (probably aided by tenancy law) But when the owners/managers are old people locked in their cultural assumptions this kind of crap happens Maybe it's time for an occidental company to start providing such service.
rwallace 12y ago
If you're providing a cubicle with bed and available showers, laundry service and suchlike, the added cost of providing electricity and Internet is small whereas the added value is large, so it strikes me as efficient.

saint_fiasco 12y ago

The worst part I think is that, even though they don't have family in the city, work is hard to find, and the rent is very expensive, they still won't leave Tokio. Does that mean the other cities are worse?

peter303 12y ago

I've read several articles about some Silicon Valley employees living in their cars. Especially if the company provides most everything else- food, showers, entertainment. Why spend huge amounts on apartment you just sleep in? This happened at MIT and Stanford too when I was there. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google-staff-shun-homes-and-live-in-car-park.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11089188/Google...

mvid 12y ago
Is there anything in your life other than work at that point? You are either at work or a bunk bed on wheels. How is that healthy?

Kurtz79 12y ago

It is dishonarable in Japan to live in your parents' home until you find something stable ? Or to live in a flatshare ? The average salary for those Coffee Shop dwellers is higher than a starting salary for many jobs in Southern Europe. Even if the cost of living is inferior to Tokyo, it's still not enough to rent an apartment by yourself for most people, so many 20something stay at their parents' home until they saved enough to move out, or found a better job, of just find a flatshare. I know it's cultural, and not very flattering for those still living off their parents in their mid-late twenties, but given the alternative...