8 ms·

They'll just make encryption illegal. And record everything everybody does all the time. They never stop. Their objective is to take everything they can. As soo

They'll just make encryption illegal. And record everything everybody does all the time. They never stop. Their objective is to take everything they can. As soon as this is passed they'll look into making even more restrictive laws. It will never stop, the only solution is to play their game and try and keep legislation from being passed, and get existing laws dismissed.

gloob 17y ago
A second option is to get out of the first world. It's not so much that developing countries won't pass these laws, but rather that they'll have a somewhat tougher time enforcing them (if they even bother to try).
- Vivtek 17y ago
  The only problem being that in the Third World, they won't just abrogate your Internet freedom; if they don't like what you say, they'll come and beat you with large blunt objects, or just kill you. America hasn't gone that far, and won't. It's just going to get really stupid for a while, and the folks in Washington are, as somebody once said, supposed to be smarter than me.
  - gloob 17y ago
    I'm aware. I'm thinking more along the lines of Brazil. Not first world, but it's not like we're talking about Somalia either.
    - Vivtek 17y ago
      Point. Actually, Brazil would be a pretty good choice.
    - forensic 17y ago
      Among the wealthy this is a very common line of thinking. Many rich people with foresight who are concerned buy land in South America and develop plans to quickly emigrate. South America is the ideal expat location for those who can afford it.
  - redcap 17y ago
    Or maybe they'll just do what Russia and China do and ignore the fuck out of any and all copyright shit.
    - khafra 17y ago
      I wonder if learning to read simplified Chinese and joining Q-Zone would be even more effective than joining a Darknet, at least for some types of speech--and they probably don't care what you say about Western governments on there, either.
      - lsc 17y ago
        Speaking as a small provider who gets these kinds of takedown notices, America is actually pretty good when it comes to political speech. Perhaps the best in the world. if you get a takedown for political speech, nearly any small provider would be happy to fight for you, because it's wonderful publicity. (I say small provider, because in order to fight for you, someone with enough authority to do so has got to see the takedown, and decide it is bogus. At large companies, the people reading the takedown often don't have authority to decide to fight or not. the same incentive applies, though, so if someone at a large corporation with authority saw a bogus takedown for political speech, they might make the same decision a small provider would.) I know I'd be happy to defend original political speech against a bogus takedown notice... not because I'm patriotic or altruistic, but because the publicity would be priceless. this is America, and my customers are nerds; being at the center of some scandal where the feds were trying to shut down some opposing political viewpoint would be incredible, from a self-promotion standpoint. America becomes a bad place when you want some kind of commercial speech (or when your 'political' speech is commercial... but even then, so long as it's clear you have a valid claim and are not just copying someone else's copywritten work, it's pretty easy to find a provider willing to fight for you in order to garner the positive publicity.) I might be willing to stand up for political speech, but I'm going to cooperate with taking down customers who want to violate trademarks to sell knock-off goods (knock-off goods are fine, just don't violate trademarks.) I'm also not going to spend a penny defending people who want to share movies or other copywritten data. Right or wrong, that's not a fight I can win here in America. I keep telling my customers this; if you want to say something politically controversial, do so here. if you want to copy the latest movies, etc... host in eastern Europe or china, and don't involve me.
anamax 17y ago
> It will never stop, the only solution is to play their game and try and keep legislation from being passed, and get existing laws dismissed. "The only solution"? Not hardly. Lampposts, rope, politicians. Some assembly required.
- forensic 17y ago
  have you seen modern riot control technology? Dude, they have 50 years of tech advantage over the pitchfork wielders. We are truly fucked if the military and police do not mutiny
  - krschultz 17y ago
    Have you seen what proportion of Americans own firearms? If we are talking about treason - which hanging politicians from a lamp post would be - it won't be crowd control with tear gas and riot shields. It will be some police/military with guns vs citizens/police/military with guns. Fortunately this law will not require that level of trouble. It is so draconian that it will not pass - so long as it is made public. The only way the government can control us is through secrecy. When something is so obviously against the public interest it won't be passed if enough people fight against it. The reason the Patriot act and others stood was because they just didn't effect enough people. If you start talking about losing your internet because your son posted a YouTube clip, voters will get mad.
    - forensic 17y ago
      You've made it clear that you haven't been acquainted with modern riot control technology. tear gas and shields is the OLD stuff. The new stuff hasn't been widely utilized, but it IS widely in place and police and military have been trained on it. The purpose of these non-lethal riot control methods is to destroy the power of assembly without losing the hearts and minds of the masses. LRAD is one of the most widely known riot control technologies that is totally TV-friendly. The TV can't even tell that it is being used - in fact unless it is used on you you don't even realize it is being used. This can be deployed from all kinds of platforms that impersonalize it. If the public doesn't complain about waterboarding they aren't going to complain about LRAD. And yet LRAD will totally destroy a peaceful demonstration. You're right that we should be able to get former military and police on our side, but we better hope they mutiny and are able to steal technology.
dtf 17y ago
Could they really do this? HTTPS is pretty much vital to a major part of the economy now. I find it hard to see how they could word anything other than a blanket encryption ban in a manner which would prevent surreptitious use of the remaining systems. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I really feel the cat's out of the bag here - technology will always trump legislation.
- Vivtek 17y ago
  One might say the same of air travel - yet a million people around the world are denied the right to fly because somebody in the government typed their name wrong on a form. Does anybody fix that? Find the person who cares. Hint: nobody cares. This treaty will make the Internet just like today's air travel. Do you think technology will trump that?
  - gills 17y ago
    Yes.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
- forensic 17y ago
  it would never be a blanket ban. there would be an escape valve of bureaucracy that only corporations could utilize
  - Create 17y ago
    it has always been the case (utube takeoff, Meg Whitman & Co. would be happy to forget about the foundations of Skype [KaZaa] etc.) ...ever wondered how GOOG Books works? http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_intellectual_property_trade_agreement_%282007%29 http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_int...
- JoeAltmaier 17y ago
  Agreed, Furthermore since when has your opinion been traceable to your ISP? I don't post anything (well nearly anything) on an ISP-hosted account; its on a public forum, or a cloud server etc. Encryption, proxies, public fora, technology in general will make this a futile effort to police. The genie is out of the bottle, and this rumored 'treaty' is a cry by a desperate administration that is feeling powerless. They may as well say "we'll put serial numbers on the buggy whips! We'll regulate steam engines! That'll stop em!"
JoeAltmaier 17y ago
ANd there will be murder in the streets, and fire will rain down, and dark times will come for all, and ... This thread is most dramatic. Where is the demand for references I have come to expect from this forum? Folks, lets stop responding to emotional venting as if its fact.
- tezza 17y ago
  Yes, I got modded down for daring to suggest a court would decide on a balance between right to privacy and right to protect ones works. LOL! Court of HN says NO! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=921446 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=921446

gloob 17y ago

A second option is to get out of the first world. It's not so much that developing countries won't pass these laws, but rather that they'll have a somewhat tougher time enforcing them (if they even bother to try).

Vivtek 17y ago
The only problem being that in the Third World, they won't just abrogate your Internet freedom; if they don't like what you say, they'll come and beat you with large blunt objects, or just kill you. America hasn't gone that far, and won't. It's just going to get really stupid for a while, and the folks in Washington are, as somebody once said, supposed to be smarter than me.
- gloob 17y ago
  I'm aware. I'm thinking more along the lines of Brazil. Not first world, but it's not like we're talking about Somalia either.
  - Vivtek 17y ago
    Point. Actually, Brazil would be a pretty good choice.
  - forensic 17y ago
    Among the wealthy this is a very common line of thinking. Many rich people with foresight who are concerned buy land in South America and develop plans to quickly emigrate. South America is the ideal expat location for those who can afford it.
- redcap 17y ago
  Or maybe they'll just do what Russia and China do and ignore the fuck out of any and all copyright shit.
  - khafra 17y ago
    I wonder if learning to read simplified Chinese and joining Q-Zone would be even more effective than joining a Darknet, at least for some types of speech--and they probably don't care what you say about Western governments on there, either.
    - lsc 17y ago
      Speaking as a small provider who gets these kinds of takedown notices, America is actually pretty good when it comes to political speech. Perhaps the best in the world. if you get a takedown for political speech, nearly any small provider would be happy to fight for you, because it's wonderful publicity. (I say small provider, because in order to fight for you, someone with enough authority to do so has got to see the takedown, and decide it is bogus. At large companies, the people reading the takedown often don't have authority to decide to fight or not. the same incentive applies, though, so if someone at a large corporation with authority saw a bogus takedown for political speech, they might make the same decision a small provider would.) I know I'd be happy to defend original political speech against a bogus takedown notice... not because I'm patriotic or altruistic, but because the publicity would be priceless. this is America, and my customers are nerds; being at the center of some scandal where the feds were trying to shut down some opposing political viewpoint would be incredible, from a self-promotion standpoint. America becomes a bad place when you want some kind of commercial speech (or when your 'political' speech is commercial... but even then, so long as it's clear you have a valid claim and are not just copying someone else's copywritten work, it's pretty easy to find a provider willing to fight for you in order to garner the positive publicity.) I might be willing to stand up for political speech, but I'm going to cooperate with taking down customers who want to violate trademarks to sell knock-off goods (knock-off goods are fine, just don't violate trademarks.) I'm also not going to spend a penny defending people who want to share movies or other copywritten data. Right or wrong, that's not a fight I can win here in America. I keep telling my customers this; if you want to say something politically controversial, do so here. if you want to copy the latest movies, etc... host in eastern Europe or china, and don't involve me.

anamax 17y ago

> It will never stop, the only solution is to play their game and try and keep legislation from being passed, and get existing laws dismissed. "The only solution"? Not hardly. Lampposts, rope, politicians. Some assembly required.

forensic 17y ago
have you seen modern riot control technology? Dude, they have 50 years of tech advantage over the pitchfork wielders. We are truly fucked if the military and police do not mutiny
- krschultz 17y ago
  Have you seen what proportion of Americans own firearms? If we are talking about treason - which hanging politicians from a lamp post would be - it won't be crowd control with tear gas and riot shields. It will be some police/military with guns vs citizens/police/military with guns. Fortunately this law will not require that level of trouble. It is so draconian that it will not pass - so long as it is made public. The only way the government can control us is through secrecy. When something is so obviously against the public interest it won't be passed if enough people fight against it. The reason the Patriot act and others stood was because they just didn't effect enough people. If you start talking about losing your internet because your son posted a YouTube clip, voters will get mad.
  - forensic 17y ago
    You've made it clear that you haven't been acquainted with modern riot control technology. tear gas and shields is the OLD stuff. The new stuff hasn't been widely utilized, but it IS widely in place and police and military have been trained on it. The purpose of these non-lethal riot control methods is to destroy the power of assembly without losing the hearts and minds of the masses. LRAD is one of the most widely known riot control technologies that is totally TV-friendly. The TV can't even tell that it is being used - in fact unless it is used on you you don't even realize it is being used. This can be deployed from all kinds of platforms that impersonalize it. If the public doesn't complain about waterboarding they aren't going to complain about LRAD. And yet LRAD will totally destroy a peaceful demonstration. You're right that we should be able to get former military and police on our side, but we better hope they mutiny and are able to steal technology.

dtf 17y ago

Could they really do this? HTTPS is pretty much vital to a major part of the economy now. I find it hard to see how they could word anything other than a blanket encryption ban in a manner which would prevent surreptitious use of the remaining systems. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I really feel the cat's out of the bag here - technology will always trump legislation.

Vivtek 17y ago
One might say the same of air travel - yet a million people around the world are denied the right to fly because somebody in the government typed their name wrong on a form. Does anybody fix that? Find the person who cares. Hint: nobody cares. This treaty will make the Internet just like today's air travel. Do you think technology will trump that?
- gills 17y ago
  Yes.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
forensic 17y ago
it would never be a blanket ban. there would be an escape valve of bureaucracy that only corporations could utilize
- Create 17y ago
  it has always been the case (utube takeoff, Meg Whitman & Co. would be happy to forget about the foundations of Skype [KaZaa] etc.) ...ever wondered how GOOG Books works? http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_intellectual_property_trade_agreement_%282007%29 http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Proposed_US_ACTA_multi-lateral_int...
JoeAltmaier 17y ago
Agreed, Furthermore since when has your opinion been traceable to your ISP? I don't post anything (well nearly anything) on an ISP-hosted account; its on a public forum, or a cloud server etc. Encryption, proxies, public fora, technology in general will make this a futile effort to police. The genie is out of the bottle, and this rumored 'treaty' is a cry by a desperate administration that is feeling powerless. They may as well say "we'll put serial numbers on the buggy whips! We'll regulate steam engines! That'll stop em!"

JoeAltmaier 17y ago

ANd there will be murder in the streets, and fire will rain down, and dark times will come for all, and ... This thread is most dramatic. Where is the demand for references I have come to expect from this forum? Folks, lets stop responding to emotional venting as if its fact.

tezza 17y ago
Yes, I got modded down for daring to suggest a court would decide on a balance between right to privacy and right to protect ones works. LOL! Court of HN says NO! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=921446 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=921446