5 ms·

Most importantly is that many of those people shouting about the virtue of work are enjoying anti-work on the backs of those working harder than ever. I don't k

Most importantly is that many of those people shouting about the virtue of work are enjoying anti-work on the backs of those working harder than ever. I don't know if it's actually malicious, or just an echo chamber (there have been plenty of studies that show that the more money people have, the more they feel they deserve to be in the position they are [0] - this of course being a generalization and not an accusation of parent), but it certainly seems like a degree of Ostrich Syndrome when it comes to acknowledging how the efforts of many often benefit the few. Edit: forgot link [0] http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/ http://blog.ted.com/6-studies-of-money-and-the-mind/

sago 12y ago
The idea that someone can claim they deserve their success because they worked so hard, when 'work hard' just means 'spend long-hours doing something they were intellectually and emotionally engaged by' seems so transparently egotistic. On that basis, most successful people I know almost never work hard.
- themartorana 12y ago
  I spent a summer working on a peach farm in the packing house. It was hard work. The next summer I worked as a life guard at a private club, which was over all incredibly easy (and I got paid more). It was transparent which life I'd rather lead. Fast forward 20 years, and as "hard" as I work in software and mobile games, it's never been as soul crushing as working on the farm for minimum wage, with absurdly strict owners. (I once got yelled at for looking at the clock on the wall behind me when we were in a lull.) My now father-in-law has been a farmer for 60+ years. He has never had much money and still works the fields. He works hard. I'm pretty sure I only did once, 22 years ago.
  - danieltillett 12y ago
    I feel the same. I have worked in agricultural jobs and it is really hard work - work so hard that even when young and fit you end the day so tired that you want to sleep as soon as the sun goes down. About the only positive out of this experience is it does make me really appreciate the cushy lifestyle I have now :)
    - cglace 12y ago
      I'm the opposite. I worked landscaping for a few years and loved the fresh air, blue skies and working with my hands.
      - danieltillett 12y ago
        I have bank of large windows in my office overlooking a sea of green that I can open and enjoy the outside weather. I don’t think I would be too happy being in some basement under fluorescent lights year round.
    - thret 12y ago
      It depends though. I have a friend who bought a winery+vineyard after he retired, he's losing money and working very hard but he's also happy. I've spent a day out at his farm, pruning vines and getting shown around his equipment and all the things he's excited about. We ended the day with a big family BBQ on the veranda and so much wine... pretty good retirement if you can afford it.
      - danieltillett 12y ago
        Buying a winery is a good way to turn a large fortune into a small one. I love visiting wineries, but doubt I will ever make enough money to own one. There is a big difference between working on your own property in your retirement and working piece rate earning under the minimum wage for 14 hours a day of back-breaking physical labor.
golergka 12y ago
> on the backs of those working harder than ever As a software engineer — no I don't. Sometimes I feel bad about earning a lot of money doing what I love, but at the same time, I know for sure that I don't exploit anyone, and that I got where I am only thanks to my own work. Yes, it's unfair that the world needs more software engineers than artists right now, and if I loved art more than code but that doesn't mean that I exploit anyone.
- e_proxus 12y ago
  You most likely do. The hardware you use is probably manufactured under much more severe conditions that under those you work. And what about the raw materials required to produce that hardware? Some of those are probably mined under much more harsh conditions. The same goes for the clothes you wear, the food you eat etc. (though, to be fair it is easier to consciously buy better food and clothes today than hardware). I often felt bad working in the software business because of the issues with hardware manufacturing. You can buy locally produced clothes and food, and you can often figure out under what conditions they are made under. With hardware, not so much.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    That's a bit disingenuous. By that logic, everyone exploits people, so the baseline just rises to that, making the GP's statement "I didn't exploit any more people than everyone else", which is more or less true.
  - golergka 12y ago
    Yes, I use products that are made by people that fare worse than me. This statement will stay true forever for any member of the middle class, unless humanity will get rid of money, and enters post-scarcity economy of Star Trek (which would've been called communism, if wasn't such a loaded world). But it doesn't mean that I exploit those people in any way.
    - countrybama24 12y ago
      You are the customer of those who do exploit those people though. We're all complicit in this, but I think it's equally disingenuous to wash one's hands of all exploitation in supply chain they benefit from simply because they don't directly make the decision to exploit someone. You're fortunate to work in an industry where workers have enough leverage to combat the exploitation rampant in other industries. And it is not inevitable, we could end (or at least minimize) the violent, chaotic exploitation without needing a post-scarcity economy in my opinion.

sago 12y ago

The idea that someone can claim they deserve their success because they worked so hard, when 'work hard' just means 'spend long-hours doing something they were intellectually and emotionally engaged by' seems so transparently egotistic. On that basis, most successful people I know almost never work hard.

themartorana 12y ago
I spent a summer working on a peach farm in the packing house. It was hard work. The next summer I worked as a life guard at a private club, which was over all incredibly easy (and I got paid more). It was transparent which life I'd rather lead. Fast forward 20 years, and as "hard" as I work in software and mobile games, it's never been as soul crushing as working on the farm for minimum wage, with absurdly strict owners. (I once got yelled at for looking at the clock on the wall behind me when we were in a lull.) My now father-in-law has been a farmer for 60+ years. He has never had much money and still works the fields. He works hard. I'm pretty sure I only did once, 22 years ago.
- danieltillett 12y ago
  I feel the same. I have worked in agricultural jobs and it is really hard work - work so hard that even when young and fit you end the day so tired that you want to sleep as soon as the sun goes down. About the only positive out of this experience is it does make me really appreciate the cushy lifestyle I have now :)
  - cglace 12y ago
    I'm the opposite. I worked landscaping for a few years and loved the fresh air, blue skies and working with my hands.
    - danieltillett 12y ago
      I have bank of large windows in my office overlooking a sea of green that I can open and enjoy the outside weather. I don’t think I would be too happy being in some basement under fluorescent lights year round.
  - thret 12y ago
    It depends though. I have a friend who bought a winery+vineyard after he retired, he's losing money and working very hard but he's also happy. I've spent a day out at his farm, pruning vines and getting shown around his equipment and all the things he's excited about. We ended the day with a big family BBQ on the veranda and so much wine... pretty good retirement if you can afford it.
    - danieltillett 12y ago
      Buying a winery is a good way to turn a large fortune into a small one. I love visiting wineries, but doubt I will ever make enough money to own one. There is a big difference between working on your own property in your retirement and working piece rate earning under the minimum wage for 14 hours a day of back-breaking physical labor.

golergka 12y ago

> on the backs of those working harder than ever As a software engineer — no I don't. Sometimes I feel bad about earning a lot of money doing what I love, but at the same time, I know for sure that I don't exploit anyone, and that I got where I am only thanks to my own work. Yes, it's unfair that the world needs more software engineers than artists right now, and if I loved art more than code but that doesn't mean that I exploit anyone.

e_proxus 12y ago
You most likely do. The hardware you use is probably manufactured under much more severe conditions that under those you work. And what about the raw materials required to produce that hardware? Some of those are probably mined under much more harsh conditions. The same goes for the clothes you wear, the food you eat etc. (though, to be fair it is easier to consciously buy better food and clothes today than hardware). I often felt bad working in the software business because of the issues with hardware manufacturing. You can buy locally produced clothes and food, and you can often figure out under what conditions they are made under. With hardware, not so much.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  That's a bit disingenuous. By that logic, everyone exploits people, so the baseline just rises to that, making the GP's statement "I didn't exploit any more people than everyone else", which is more or less true.
- golergka 12y ago
  Yes, I use products that are made by people that fare worse than me. This statement will stay true forever for any member of the middle class, unless humanity will get rid of money, and enters post-scarcity economy of Star Trek (which would've been called communism, if wasn't such a loaded world). But it doesn't mean that I exploit those people in any way.
  - countrybama24 12y ago
    You are the customer of those who do exploit those people though. We're all complicit in this, but I think it's equally disingenuous to wash one's hands of all exploitation in supply chain they benefit from simply because they don't directly make the decision to exploit someone. You're fortunate to work in an industry where workers have enough leverage to combat the exploitation rampant in other industries. And it is not inevitable, we could end (or at least minimize) the violent, chaotic exploitation without needing a post-scarcity economy in my opinion.