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>It is your duty to read the source code when all else fails. Wait? I have to read the source to use a framework? Which is it? Frameworks are awesome becaus

by fsk 12y ago

>It is your duty to read the source code when all else fails. Wait? I have to read the source to use a framework? Which is it? Frameworks are awesome because they are well-documented? Frameworks are awesome because you can read the source when you're fighting some obscure bug? The problem with reading the framework source is that, the bits of the framework being used are usually only 1%-5%, so now I'm digging through some mountain to find the tiny bit I'm looking for. If I have a problem with GCC or PHP, I don't (normally) have to read the GCC source or PHP source. Why should I have to read the framework source in order to find out how it works?

robotkilla 12y ago
> Wait? I have to read the source to use a framework? Which is it? Frameworks are awesome because they are well-documented? Frameworks are awesome because you can read the source when you're fighting some obscure bug? Well, I said "when all else fails". If for some reason you are unable to find the answer to the issue you face within the documentation, then as a developer you have to dive into the source code. > now I'm digging through some mountain to find the tiny bit I'm looking for What is the reverse case? Why is custom code different? > If I have a problem with GCC or PHP, I don't (normally) have to read the GCC source or PHP source. Why should I have to read the framework source in order to find out how it works? Correct, but if you have a problem with a PHP website, you typically do open up the website's PHP source code and read it. I don't understand how custom code solves the problem of needing to read source code.
- fsk 12y ago
  With custom code, there usually is just enough code to solve the specific problem. With a framework, there's also the code that comes with the framework that this project doesn't use. The framework is a super-generalized solution, and it comes with a lot of code my use case doesn't need, which makes it a lot harder if I need to trace through the framework to find the problem. My boss wants the bug fixed in a couple hours. I can't spend a couple weeks reading the framework source so I can fix the bug. (For the zend form example, I wound up writing my own form instead of reusing what was already there.) If I have a problem with a website written in PHP, I read the PHP source and can fix the problem. If I have a problem with a website written in PHP plus a framework, now I'm expected to read the PHP code PLUS the code for the framework? That's several orders of magnitude more work.
  - robotkilla 12y ago
    > My boss wants the bug fixed in a couple hours. I can't spend a couple weeks reading the framework source so I can fix the bug. Perhaps you feel I am saying that you must exhaustively read the framework's source code to understand it. I am not. You should have the ability to quickly open up your framework of choice's source code, navigate to the portion that contains the relevant bit of info you need and go from there. "going from there" sometimes entails referencing a few base classes or figuring out what the result of some custom methods or functions do. It shouldn't require understanding every line of code of the framework. > now I'm expected to read the PHP code PLUS the code for the framework? Only if the framework's documentation or the internet fail to answer your question faster, yes.
  - dikaiosune 12y ago
    > With custom code, there usually is just enough code to solve the specific problem. OK. Sure. Less sarcastically, tooling is often very helpful when you have to dive into the source of a library.

by fsk 12y ago

robotkilla 12y ago

> Wait? I have to read the source to use a framework? Which is it? Frameworks are awesome because they are well-documented? Frameworks are awesome because you can read the source when you're fighting some obscure bug? Well, I said "when all else fails". If for some reason you are unable to find the answer to the issue you face within the documentation, then as a developer you have to dive into the source code. > now I'm digging through some mountain to find the tiny bit I'm looking for What is the reverse case? Why is custom code different? > If I have a problem with GCC or PHP, I don't (normally) have to read the GCC source or PHP source. Why should I have to read the framework source in order to find out how it works? Correct, but if you have a problem with a PHP website, you typically do open up the website's PHP source code and read it. I don't understand how custom code solves the problem of needing to read source code.

fsk 12y ago
With custom code, there usually is just enough code to solve the specific problem. With a framework, there's also the code that comes with the framework that this project doesn't use. The framework is a super-generalized solution, and it comes with a lot of code my use case doesn't need, which makes it a lot harder if I need to trace through the framework to find the problem. My boss wants the bug fixed in a couple hours. I can't spend a couple weeks reading the framework source so I can fix the bug. (For the zend form example, I wound up writing my own form instead of reusing what was already there.) If I have a problem with a website written in PHP, I read the PHP source and can fix the problem. If I have a problem with a website written in PHP plus a framework, now I'm expected to read the PHP code PLUS the code for the framework? That's several orders of magnitude more work.
- robotkilla 12y ago
  > My boss wants the bug fixed in a couple hours. I can't spend a couple weeks reading the framework source so I can fix the bug. Perhaps you feel I am saying that you must exhaustively read the framework's source code to understand it. I am not. You should have the ability to quickly open up your framework of choice's source code, navigate to the portion that contains the relevant bit of info you need and go from there. "going from there" sometimes entails referencing a few base classes or figuring out what the result of some custom methods or functions do. It shouldn't require understanding every line of code of the framework. > now I'm expected to read the PHP code PLUS the code for the framework? Only if the framework's documentation or the internet fail to answer your question faster, yes.
- dikaiosune 12y ago
  > With custom code, there usually is just enough code to solve the specific problem. OK. Sure. Less sarcastically, tooling is often very helpful when you have to dive into the source of a library.