4 ms·

Frameworks seem to be most useful for churning out a lot of mediocre websites quickly. If you're doing something really original, a framework is less useful.

by fsk 12y ago

Frameworks seem to be most useful for churning out a lot of mediocre websites quickly. If you're doing something really original, a framework is less useful. Another downside of frameworks is maintenance. A company hires an outsourcing company to make a website. They use a framework, and might not even use it correctly. The incentive is for the outsourcing company to use a framework, because that lets them ship a website that sort of mostly works quickly, so they can get paid. The contract is over and now some other programmer (such as me) is now supporting it. Now, making changes is several of order of magnitudes harder, because you're fighting the framework in addition to the code that was already written (especially when they didn't use the framework correctly). For example, I was working on a website that used Zend forms. Now I needed to modify the form so that it was pre-populated with the data (an edit page instead of a submit page). I spent a couple days looking at the code and the zend documentation, and I just couldn't figure it out. The form had some javascript on it also, so I couldn't just use value="" to pre-populate the data. It it was plain HTML/PHP, I could have just used value="" to pre-populate the data and be done in 5 minutes. The framework make a 5 minute task almost impossible.

robotkilla 12y ago
> If you're doing something really original, a framework is less useful. Waaaait a minute - what kind of frameworks are we talking about here? You can build loads of things with Django. I can build VERY unique sites with backbone... i don't understand the opening comment. Hell, even bootstrap can be tweaked beyond recognition without terrible code. Edit: > They use a framework, and might not even use it correctly. That's a shitty company or developer, not a symptom of the framework. Surely you would rather work on an established documented framework than a custom undocumented mess from the same shit company?
- fsk 12y ago
  My experience with frameworks has been that, once you go outside the stuff that comes with the framework, they start to hold you back more than they help you. It's also a nightmare to go into someone else's poorly written framework code and try to maintain it, especially because frameworks have "magic" where functions are not explicitly invoked, so it's almost impossible to trace the control flow. Every time I've been maintaining someone else's framework code, the project was a mess. I don't see how frameworks are so awesome if so many people use them incorrectly. For example, at my last job, they were using angular.js. Every 30-60 minutes the website just randomly crashed. There were all sorts of weird "$digest in progress" errors and bizarre errors. I know they weren't using angular correctly, but if a group of average developers are using angular incorrectly, do you blame them or blame angular?
  - mbesto 12y ago
    Uhhh, you blame them.
    - fsk 12y ago
      Why? If a group of average programmers use a tool incorrectly, is it the worker's fault or the tool's fault? If a group of average people can't use angular correctly, then maybe angular isn't so great.
      - parasubvert 12y ago
        You're assuming your anecdote is the norm. Angular is pretty popular because it makes some people more productive. The average woodworker probably doesn't know how to properly use a lathe, but they don't go on WoodHacker News saying that lathes suck.
        robotkilla 12y ago
        > they don't go on WoodHacker News saying that lathes suck You're assuming the average woodworker knows about WoodHacker News.
  - robotkilla 12y ago
    Well first, angular is not so great, but that's only one framework. > once you go outside the stuff that comes with the framework, they start to hold you back more than they help you If you're talking something like angular, you are correct. If you're talking about something such as Django, not so much. > nightmare to go into someone else's poorly written framework code and try to maintain it Try doing it with undocumented custom code. > especially because frameworks have "magic" where functions are not explicitly invoked It is your duty to read the source code when all else fails. If you start doing this you will also most likely start seeing a distinct difference between the acceleration of your career vs. your coworkers. > Every time I've been maintaining someone else's framework code, the project was a mess you have been working with or following behind poor developers. their custom code would most likely have been equally terrible and rife with bugs. > I don't see how frameworks are so awesome if so many people use them incorrectly. So are guns, drugs, genitalia and cars but people use that stuff wrong all the time. Frameworks are nice for these reasons: 1. they can help you learn how to build your own frameworks 2. they are typically documented (hopefully well-so) 3. the fact that you can identify which mistakes your coworkers made quickly ("oh, they should have used this class, function or file structure because it says so in the docs", vs trying to track down the original dev or read through mountains of source code to figure out what some undocumented thing does). Edit: i wish i would get told why i'm getting down voted on this rather than just down voted for an unknown reason. Is it the snarky remark that contains the word "genitalia"?
untog 12y ago
The contract is over and now some other programmer (such as me) is now supporting it. Now, making changes is several of order of magnitudes harder, because you're fighting the framework That's barely ever the case though. A framework guarantees consistency. You can complain about the Zend framework, but it has documentation you can look up. If an outsourcing company wrote it from scratch you'd have no-one to ask and no further information to pick the code apart. You're complaining about a framework that doesn't have the feature you wanted, but that doesn't invalidate the concept of frameworks.
- fsk 12y ago
  I looked at the zend documentation, and it was basically an auto-generated list of function names. I looked through the specific Form class they were using, and it was useless, just a list of function names with no description of what the parameters meant. The documentation for other frameworks I read was similar. Actually, they have another project written in a custom framework, which is also a nightmare, but it's less bloated and I was able to figure out how it works by reading the source.
  - untog 12y ago
    So frameworks are bad because one framework you used was more bloated than the other? It's not just documentation - Googling "zend form prepopulate data" returns a ton of Stack Overflow answers. I'm not saying every framework is amazing, I'm saying that using public, known frameworks means there is a lot more support available for you out there. Not least because these frameworks have had many eyes review them - the custom framework you used was less bloated this time, but there's literally zero guarantee of quality there.
    - fsk 12y ago
      Yeah, I was googling carefully. It wasn't just a zend form, they had derived from the zend Form class and added their own custom logic. After a couple days, I couldn't figure it out, either by looking at their code or the zend documentation.
icantthinkofone 12y ago
Try telling that to most noobish programmers, and all redditors, and see where it gets you. I can't agree more with all your comments here but I've been downvoted into oblivion for saying the same things.
- fsk 12y ago
  I haven't seen a single MVC-style framework that I liked. I don't understand how such an awful idea can be so popular. It sucks to be in an industry that chases fads over substance. MVC frameworks I have tried at work: Java/Spring/jsp/beans Ruby on Rails angular.js zend All were awful. I do like libraries, things you can plug and play and use where you want (like jQuery). A framework demands that your whole application be written in its style. For example, the Ruby on Rails project used a legacy database, which was not written in primary key autoincrement integer Rails style. That project was a disaster and that startup failed. With financial data, demanding the primary key to be autoincrement integer forces a lot of unnecessary joins, when you already have natural keys like Ticker or CUSIP.

by fsk 12y ago

robotkilla 12y ago

> If you're doing something really original, a framework is less useful. Waaaait a minute - what kind of frameworks are we talking about here? You can build loads of things with Django. I can build VERY unique sites with backbone... i don't understand the opening comment. Hell, even bootstrap can be tweaked beyond recognition without terrible code. Edit: > They use a framework, and might not even use it correctly. That's a shitty company or developer, not a symptom of the framework. Surely you would rather work on an established documented framework than a custom undocumented mess from the same shit company?

fsk 12y ago
My experience with frameworks has been that, once you go outside the stuff that comes with the framework, they start to hold you back more than they help you. It's also a nightmare to go into someone else's poorly written framework code and try to maintain it, especially because frameworks have "magic" where functions are not explicitly invoked, so it's almost impossible to trace the control flow. Every time I've been maintaining someone else's framework code, the project was a mess. I don't see how frameworks are so awesome if so many people use them incorrectly. For example, at my last job, they were using angular.js. Every 30-60 minutes the website just randomly crashed. There were all sorts of weird "$digest in progress" errors and bizarre errors. I know they weren't using angular correctly, but if a group of average developers are using angular incorrectly, do you blame them or blame angular?
- mbesto 12y ago
  Uhhh, you blame them.
  - fsk 12y ago
    Why? If a group of average programmers use a tool incorrectly, is it the worker's fault or the tool's fault? If a group of average people can't use angular correctly, then maybe angular isn't so great.
    - parasubvert 12y ago
      You're assuming your anecdote is the norm. Angular is pretty popular because it makes some people more productive. The average woodworker probably doesn't know how to properly use a lathe, but they don't go on WoodHacker News saying that lathes suck.
      - robotkilla 12y ago
        > they don't go on WoodHacker News saying that lathes suck You're assuming the average woodworker knows about WoodHacker News.
- robotkilla 12y ago
  Well first, angular is not so great, but that's only one framework. > once you go outside the stuff that comes with the framework, they start to hold you back more than they help you If you're talking something like angular, you are correct. If you're talking about something such as Django, not so much. > nightmare to go into someone else's poorly written framework code and try to maintain it Try doing it with undocumented custom code. > especially because frameworks have "magic" where functions are not explicitly invoked It is your duty to read the source code when all else fails. If you start doing this you will also most likely start seeing a distinct difference between the acceleration of your career vs. your coworkers. > Every time I've been maintaining someone else's framework code, the project was a mess you have been working with or following behind poor developers. their custom code would most likely have been equally terrible and rife with bugs. > I don't see how frameworks are so awesome if so many people use them incorrectly. So are guns, drugs, genitalia and cars but people use that stuff wrong all the time. Frameworks are nice for these reasons: 1. they can help you learn how to build your own frameworks 2. they are typically documented (hopefully well-so) 3. the fact that you can identify which mistakes your coworkers made quickly ("oh, they should have used this class, function or file structure because it says so in the docs", vs trying to track down the original dev or read through mountains of source code to figure out what some undocumented thing does). Edit: i wish i would get told why i'm getting down voted on this rather than just down voted for an unknown reason. Is it the snarky remark that contains the word "genitalia"?

untog 12y ago

The contract is over and now some other programmer (such as me) is now supporting it. Now, making changes is several of order of magnitudes harder, because you're fighting the framework That's barely ever the case though. A framework guarantees consistency. You can complain about the Zend framework, but it has documentation you can look up. If an outsourcing company wrote it from scratch you'd have no-one to ask and no further information to pick the code apart. You're complaining about a framework that doesn't have the feature you wanted, but that doesn't invalidate the concept of frameworks.

fsk 12y ago
I looked at the zend documentation, and it was basically an auto-generated list of function names. I looked through the specific Form class they were using, and it was useless, just a list of function names with no description of what the parameters meant. The documentation for other frameworks I read was similar. Actually, they have another project written in a custom framework, which is also a nightmare, but it's less bloated and I was able to figure out how it works by reading the source.
- untog 12y ago
  So frameworks are bad because one framework you used was more bloated than the other? It's not just documentation - Googling "zend form prepopulate data" returns a ton of Stack Overflow answers. I'm not saying every framework is amazing, I'm saying that using public, known frameworks means there is a lot more support available for you out there. Not least because these frameworks have had many eyes review them - the custom framework you used was less bloated this time, but there's literally zero guarantee of quality there.
  - fsk 12y ago
    Yeah, I was googling carefully. It wasn't just a zend form, they had derived from the zend Form class and added their own custom logic. After a couple days, I couldn't figure it out, either by looking at their code or the zend documentation.

icantthinkofone 12y ago

Try telling that to most noobish programmers, and all redditors, and see where it gets you. I can't agree more with all your comments here but I've been downvoted into oblivion for saying the same things.

fsk 12y ago
I haven't seen a single MVC-style framework that I liked. I don't understand how such an awful idea can be so popular. It sucks to be in an industry that chases fads over substance. MVC frameworks I have tried at work: Java/Spring/jsp/beans Ruby on Rails angular.js zend All were awful. I do like libraries, things you can plug and play and use where you want (like jQuery). A framework demands that your whole application be written in its style. For example, the Ruby on Rails project used a legacy database, which was not written in primary key autoincrement integer Rails style. That project was a disaster and that startup failed. With financial data, demanding the primary key to be autoincrement integer forces a lot of unnecessary joins, when you already have natural keys like Ticker or CUSIP.