5 ms·

Facebook doesn't invade anyone's privacy. They aren't going into your house and rifling through your things. People post things on facebook because they want ot

Facebook doesn't invade anyone's privacy. They aren't going into your house and rifling through your things. People post things on facebook because they want other people to see them. If you don't want to do that, then don't use facebook. You can't stop other people from talking about you, or from taking pictures of you or relating stories that involve you. That's always been a part of social life. If you consider that to be an invasion of your privacy, then leave society and live as a hermit. It probably won't be fun, but it will be very private. I know several people who don't use facebook, myself included, because they just aren't interested in the service that it provides. Philosophical concerns about the nature of privacy don't really factor into it. The social fashions about what's cool and what isn't cool will change with the winds. It isn't worth paying attention to. If facebook or any other social software is valuable to you, then good, use it. If not, no sense complaining about what other people decide to do with their time.

forthefuture 12y ago
I'm surprised that more people don't agree with this. When the first articles came out that said facebook saves everything you type in messages and status' even if you don't press save, I stopped using facebook for anything other than nondescript one line responses to groups I'm in. It's just so easy to realize that if you don't want incredibly personal things to be saved online for eternity, don't write those things online.
- Moru 12y ago
  I can't control what others write about me.
  - raphael_l 12y ago
    You also can't control what others say about you. Or post on any other website about you. Or someone showing a friend of his a picture of you. (excluding malicious intent of course)
    - click170 12y ago
      You can't control what others say about you, but you can control who your friends are. I don't tolerate friends who do not respect my privacy.
pckspcks 12y ago
There is no way to not use Facebook. Let me repeat that: THERE IS NO WAY TO NOT USE FACEBOOK. Everyone's photos: Mine, yours, Stallmans, get posted to Facebook, annotated with our names (which is increasingly becoming easy enough to do with ML -- the human component will increasingly decline). If at least one of your friends uses Facebook, Facebook has profile information on you. Stallman doesn't have a Facebook account, but things posted to Facebook identify where Stallman is, who his friends and peers are, who he interacts with, etc. Signing up for a Facebook/Google Scholar/Researchgate/etc. simply gives you some level of control over the visibility of the information collected about you. If you care about your personal brand, there is strong reason to do it. It's almost blackmail. But if you don't do it, you're still on Facebook; simply without the EULA, and without any control.
- sseveran 12y ago
  Uh...Yes there is. I don't have a facebook account. I did for 8 years. Its possible my life would be different if I used it, but I suspect not.
  - __david__ 12y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9201706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9201706
- Istof 12y ago
  I agree with you but I think that you used the wrong term... "use" should probably be replaced with "be cataloged by"... for example they do face recognition on all pictures, they harvest contact information from other people installing the FB app, they collect non-facebook browsing information using the "share to facebook" code that might get linked to your real identity somehow (third party sharing of information between companies?) even if you aren't "using" Facebook.
- raphael_l 12y ago
  There is no way to not use life. Let me repeat that: THERE IS NO WAY TO NOT USE LIFE. Simply substituting one word for another shows you how you just can't hold Facebook responsible for this. People are and have been able to share information in myriads of ways. Facebook is just one of them. They could be telling information person to person, via a phone call, via e-mail or simply standing in the street and shouting it out. I can be in the next room and a friend of mine could show photos of me to a stranger. I could be thousands of miles away and a friend of mine could reveal my private information to someone else. What's stopping me to simply create a personal website where I post information about me and my friends? Who's responsible then? The server host? Or is it the me, the one who put all the information on the site, visible for everyone? People complain about censorship, but basically what they're saying is that they want all information except the one kind where something is revealed about them. If you don't want this information to be shared, then ask your friends to stop posting your name, photos, e-mail, whatever. Please note that I'm simply responding to the argument that Facebook mines all the data your friends put up. In my wildest dream I wouldn't call FB one of the good guys, nor would I condone most of their practices (e.g. their "Like" buttons on external sites). All I'm saying is that people seem very eager to hand off responsibility to software, machines, corporations. And in some cases that simply doesn't work.
Morgawr 12y ago
I'm not saying I disagree with you here, because what you said is entirely correct, however there have been various instances in the past of social network companies tracking people with the usage of cookies (those "share on X" buttons every website has) even outside their own domain. And on top of that, you have companies like Facebook doing data analysis on your personal aggregate data and then feeding it to advertisement companies even without your direct consent (although it is implied, either by the user's ignorance or negligence). This is obviously true for other companies as well, Google, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc etc. Obviously, the main problem here is not the company, it's the people using the company and the peer pressure on everybody else to join in. But that's another story.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Facebook absolutely violates people's privacy. But you're conflating Facebook's privacy violations with people's "over-sharing" on Facebook. But those two are actually not the same. Let me give you an example: 1) Friend shares when he went to the toilet. Is that a privacy violation by Facebook? If it's public, then it's not. If it was private, and then Facebook makes it public by changing the default settings, as it's done many times before, then that would be a privacy violation. But forget about pooping. What if you get drunk and post your drunk pictures to your friends and then Facebook makes them public so your boss (or future boss) can see them? 2) Here's a much worse example than that. Facebook is tracking people through the Like button without them even clicking on it. They never gave Facebook the permission to do that (and I mean in a very "opt-in" way, not just by automatically agreeing with Facebook's ToS). Even worse than that, Facebook has been caught tracking people who don't even have a Facebook account and building "shadow profiles" of them. How is THAT not a privacy violation? So I think people who say "Facebook doesn't violate people's privacy - they just choose to overshare", are either oversimplifying all the issues and conflating them into a convenient one, or are not too educated about the topic. Oh and if you want even more real examples, Facebook has just been found to infringe people's privacy in Europe, where the privacy right actually exists, unlike in US, where "digital privacy" seems to be treated as an abstract almost non-existent thing, and the laws protecting it are orders of magnitude weaker than the laws protecting "physical world" privacy - even though there shouldn't be any difference between say law enforcement getting your printed pictures and getting your digital pictures: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/23/facebooks-privacy-policy-breaches-european-law-report-finds http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/23/facebooks-...
spinchange 12y ago
You don't use Facebook, yet lead with claim that it doesn't invade anyone's privacy... Regrettably there are numerous, well documented cases of Facebook doing exactly this. They've literally been taken to court over it several times (look into "Sponsored Stories," "Beacon," etc). Even if you don't use it, they have a shadow profile of you over there waiting, with relationships pre-graphed, simply by virtue of being in friends' contact lists who do. The site "Likes" things on peoples behalf just because they talk about it (even negatively!) with others. It occasionally automatically "friends" people because you looked at their profile and mutual friends in common. It constantly takes liberties with people's relationships, friends, and preferences, without asking. The mobile app turns on the damn mic to listen to ambient noise in the background so it can try learn what you're listening to or watching on TV! None of this is to try to convince you to care or take up the pitchfork against Facebook, but they're not like other sites. Harvesting your contact info from your friends phone to add you to their graph is an invasion, in my view (glib app permissions dialog, notwithstanding).
- raphael_l 12y ago
  > The site "Likes" things on peoples behalf just because they talk about it (even negatively!) with others. It occasionally automatically "friends" people because you looked at their profile and mutual friends in common. It constantly takes liberties with people's relationships, friends, and preferences, without asking. The mobile app turns on the damn mic to listen to ambient noise in the background so it can try learn what you're listening to or watching on TV! If you don't mind, do you have any sources for this? (Not talking about the mic thing, but the automatic liking and befriending)
  - untog 12y ago
    Yeah, I know of Beacon etc. but I've never heard of automatic likes or friendships.
  - spinchange 12y ago
    Here's a link about harvesting likes from private messages: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/03/how-private-are-your-private-messages/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/03/how-private-are-your-... and subsequently a class action suit was brought against them over it: https://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/facebook-reads-private-messages-to-boost-likes-lawsuit-claims/ https://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/facebook-reads-private-message... another suit brought over false likes: https://gigaom.com/2014/01/10/facebook-hit-with-lawsuit-over-like-ads-user-says-he-never-liked-usa-today/ https://gigaom.com/2014/01/10/facebook-hit-with-lawsuit-over... facebook recycling "likes" under guise of promoting "related stories" users didn't endorse: http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2013/01/21/facebook-is-recycling-your-likes-to-promote-stories-youve-never-seen-to-all-your-friends/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2013/01/21/faceboo... The autofriending thing is less publicized and I don't think they've ever been sued over it, so it probably hasn't been in the headlines. If you search Facebook's /help/community/ pages, you'll find a lot of users reporting it. It's happened to me. It's happened to my wife. I've had friends tell me similar stories. In every case, it seems like something algorithmic, like Facebook thinks the person is someone you should be friends with because of mutual connections or something like that. It isn't a spammy thing as much as it is...creepy, like you, as a user, don't have your own agency. It's weird and off putting to see an accepted friend request you didn't make, from someone you expressly don't want to have any contact whatsoever with, let alone be "friends."
thirsteh 12y ago
> Facebook doesn't invade anyone's privacy. What do you consider the Like, Connect, etc. buttons that are tracking virtually every page you visit, Facebook user or not?
- eropple 12y ago
  There are a lot of things about which I'll get up over, and there are plenty of companies feted around here that I think are moral crimes in progress, but this isn't one and I think you've got the arrow of responsibility backwards. You're using websites and applications that have opted into using Facebook's infrastructure for the ends that benefit them, and as a side effect they are sharing the details of their traffic and users with Facebook. If that worries you--and I'm not saying you're wrong to be worried, though I personally don't care--you should not be using those websites. There are people who don't. I think their online lives must suck, but it's their prerogative. I'm sure it's hard. But doing the right thing often is.
  - thirsteh 12y ago
    Your last point is exactly right: You can't choose not to use the vast majority of sites on the Internet. Facebook isn't the only company doing stuff like this by any stretch of the imagination, but claiming that you can just "not use Facebook" if you want to avoid them is complete nonsense, hence my original comment.
  - hrktb 12y ago
    How do you know, and thus conciously choose, if a site has a facebook widget without visiting it ? You could use adblock or something similar on the desktop or android, but then you need to know about it first, and it opens another can of worm regarding site revenues etc. Also if you're an iOS user you'll just have to live with it or abandon Safari for more limited browsers, and avoid opening any webview from any app ever. Avoiding sites that use facebook widget is just not realistic. You're fine with it, and that's ok, but that's not really the point.
    - eropple 12y ago

forthefuture 12y ago

I'm surprised that more people don't agree with this. When the first articles came out that said facebook saves everything you type in messages and status' even if you don't press save, I stopped using facebook for anything other than nondescript one line responses to groups I'm in. It's just so easy to realize that if you don't want incredibly personal things to be saved online for eternity, don't write those things online.

Moru 12y ago
I can't control what others write about me.
- raphael_l 12y ago
  You also can't control what others say about you. Or post on any other website about you. Or someone showing a friend of his a picture of you. (excluding malicious intent of course)
  - click170 12y ago
    You can't control what others say about you, but you can control who your friends are. I don't tolerate friends who do not respect my privacy.

pckspcks 12y ago

There is no way to not use Facebook. Let me repeat that: THERE IS NO WAY TO NOT USE FACEBOOK. Everyone's photos: Mine, yours, Stallmans, get posted to Facebook, annotated with our names (which is increasingly becoming easy enough to do with ML -- the human component will increasingly decline). If at least one of your friends uses Facebook, Facebook has profile information on you. Stallman doesn't have a Facebook account, but things posted to Facebook identify where Stallman is, who his friends and peers are, who he interacts with, etc. Signing up for a Facebook/Google Scholar/Researchgate/etc. simply gives you some level of control over the visibility of the information collected about you. If you care about your personal brand, there is strong reason to do it. It's almost blackmail. But if you don't do it, you're still on Facebook; simply without the EULA, and without any control.

sseveran 12y ago
Uh...Yes there is. I don't have a facebook account. I did for 8 years. Its possible my life would be different if I used it, but I suspect not.
- __david__ 12y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9201706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9201706
Istof 12y ago
I agree with you but I think that you used the wrong term... "use" should probably be replaced with "be cataloged by"... for example they do face recognition on all pictures, they harvest contact information from other people installing the FB app, they collect non-facebook browsing information using the "share to facebook" code that might get linked to your real identity somehow (third party sharing of information between companies?) even if you aren't "using" Facebook.
raphael_l 12y ago
There is no way to not use life. Let me repeat that: THERE IS NO WAY TO NOT USE LIFE. Simply substituting one word for another shows you how you just can't hold Facebook responsible for this. People are and have been able to share information in myriads of ways. Facebook is just one of them. They could be telling information person to person, via a phone call, via e-mail or simply standing in the street and shouting it out. I can be in the next room and a friend of mine could show photos of me to a stranger. I could be thousands of miles away and a friend of mine could reveal my private information to someone else. What's stopping me to simply create a personal website where I post information about me and my friends? Who's responsible then? The server host? Or is it the me, the one who put all the information on the site, visible for everyone? People complain about censorship, but basically what they're saying is that they want all information except the one kind where something is revealed about them. If you don't want this information to be shared, then ask your friends to stop posting your name, photos, e-mail, whatever. Please note that I'm simply responding to the argument that Facebook mines all the data your friends put up. In my wildest dream I wouldn't call FB one of the good guys, nor would I condone most of their practices (e.g. their "Like" buttons on external sites). All I'm saying is that people seem very eager to hand off responsibility to software, machines, corporations. And in some cases that simply doesn't work.

Morgawr 12y ago

I'm not saying I disagree with you here, because what you said is entirely correct, however there have been various instances in the past of social network companies tracking people with the usage of cookies (those "share on X" buttons every website has) even outside their own domain. And on top of that, you have companies like Facebook doing data analysis on your personal aggregate data and then feeding it to advertisement companies even without your direct consent (although it is implied, either by the user's ignorance or negligence). This is obviously true for other companies as well, Google, Twitter, LinkedIn, etc etc. Obviously, the main problem here is not the company, it's the people using the company and the peer pressure on everybody else to join in. But that's another story.

higherpurpose 12y ago

Facebook absolutely violates people's privacy. But you're conflating Facebook's privacy violations with people's "over-sharing" on Facebook. But those two are actually not the same. Let me give you an example: 1) Friend shares when he went to the toilet. Is that a privacy violation by Facebook? If it's public, then it's not. If it was private, and then Facebook makes it public by changing the default settings, as it's done many times before, then that would be a privacy violation. But forget about pooping. What if you get drunk and post your drunk pictures to your friends and then Facebook makes them public so your boss (or future boss) can see them? 2) Here's a much worse example than that. Facebook is tracking people through the Like button without them even clicking on it. They never gave Facebook the permission to do that (and I mean in a very "opt-in" way, not just by automatically agreeing with Facebook's ToS). Even worse than that, Facebook has been caught tracking people who don't even have a Facebook account and building "shadow profiles" of them. How is THAT not a privacy violation? So I think people who say "Facebook doesn't violate people's privacy - they just choose to overshare", are either oversimplifying all the issues and conflating them into a convenient one, or are not too educated about the topic. Oh and if you want even more real examples, Facebook has just been found to infringe people's privacy in Europe, where the privacy right actually exists, unlike in US, where "digital privacy" seems to be treated as an abstract almost non-existent thing, and the laws protecting it are orders of magnitude weaker than the laws protecting "physical world" privacy - even though there shouldn't be any difference between say law enforcement getting your printed pictures and getting your digital pictures: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/23/facebooks-privacy-policy-breaches-european-law-report-finds http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/23/facebooks-...

spinchange 12y ago

You don't use Facebook, yet lead with claim that it doesn't invade anyone's privacy... Regrettably there are numerous, well documented cases of Facebook doing exactly this. They've literally been taken to court over it several times (look into "Sponsored Stories," "Beacon," etc). Even if you don't use it, they have a shadow profile of you over there waiting, with relationships pre-graphed, simply by virtue of being in friends' contact lists who do. The site "Likes" things on peoples behalf just because they talk about it (even negatively!) with others. It occasionally automatically "friends" people because you looked at their profile and mutual friends in common. It constantly takes liberties with people's relationships, friends, and preferences, without asking. The mobile app turns on the damn mic to listen to ambient noise in the background so it can try learn what you're listening to or watching on TV! None of this is to try to convince you to care or take up the pitchfork against Facebook, but they're not like other sites. Harvesting your contact info from your friends phone to add you to their graph is an invasion, in my view (glib app permissions dialog, notwithstanding).

raphael_l 12y ago
> The site "Likes" things on peoples behalf just because they talk about it (even negatively!) with others. It occasionally automatically "friends" people because you looked at their profile and mutual friends in common. It constantly takes liberties with people's relationships, friends, and preferences, without asking. The mobile app turns on the damn mic to listen to ambient noise in the background so it can try learn what you're listening to or watching on TV! If you don't mind, do you have any sources for this? (Not talking about the mic thing, but the automatic liking and befriending)
- untog 12y ago
  Yeah, I know of Beacon etc. but I've never heard of automatic likes or friendships.
- spinchange 12y ago
  Here's a link about harvesting likes from private messages: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/03/how-private-are-your-private-messages/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/03/how-private-are-your-... and subsequently a class action suit was brought against them over it: https://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/facebook-reads-private-messages-to-boost-likes-lawsuit-claims/ https://gigaom.com/2014/01/02/facebook-reads-private-message... another suit brought over false likes: https://gigaom.com/2014/01/10/facebook-hit-with-lawsuit-over-like-ads-user-says-he-never-liked-usa-today/ https://gigaom.com/2014/01/10/facebook-hit-with-lawsuit-over... facebook recycling "likes" under guise of promoting "related stories" users didn't endorse: http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2013/01/21/facebook-is-recycling-your-likes-to-promote-stories-youve-never-seen-to-all-your-friends/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2013/01/21/faceboo... The autofriending thing is less publicized and I don't think they've ever been sued over it, so it probably hasn't been in the headlines. If you search Facebook's /help/community/ pages, you'll find a lot of users reporting it. It's happened to me. It's happened to my wife. I've had friends tell me similar stories. In every case, it seems like something algorithmic, like Facebook thinks the person is someone you should be friends with because of mutual connections or something like that. It isn't a spammy thing as much as it is...creepy, like you, as a user, don't have your own agency. It's weird and off putting to see an accepted friend request you didn't make, from someone you expressly don't want to have any contact whatsoever with, let alone be "friends."

thirsteh 12y ago

> Facebook doesn't invade anyone's privacy. What do you consider the Like, Connect, etc. buttons that are tracking virtually every page you visit, Facebook user or not?

eropple 12y ago
There are a lot of things about which I'll get up over, and there are plenty of companies feted around here that I think are moral crimes in progress, but this isn't one and I think you've got the arrow of responsibility backwards. You're using websites and applications that have opted into using Facebook's infrastructure for the ends that benefit them, and as a side effect they are sharing the details of their traffic and users with Facebook. If that worries you--and I'm not saying you're wrong to be worried, though I personally don't care--you should not be using those websites. There are people who don't. I think their online lives must suck, but it's their prerogative. I'm sure it's hard. But doing the right thing often is.
- thirsteh 12y ago
  Your last point is exactly right: You can't choose not to use the vast majority of sites on the Internet. Facebook isn't the only company doing stuff like this by any stretch of the imagination, but claiming that you can just "not use Facebook" if you want to avoid them is complete nonsense, hence my original comment.
- hrktb 12y ago
  How do you know, and thus conciously choose, if a site has a facebook widget without visiting it ? You could use adblock or something similar on the desktop or android, but then you need to know about it first, and it opens another can of worm regarding site revenues etc. Also if you're an iOS user you'll just have to live with it or abandon Safari for more limited browsers, and avoid opening any webview from any app ever. Avoiding sites that use facebook widget is just not realistic. You're fine with it, and that's ok, but that's not really the point.
  - eropple 12y ago