4 ms·

I like pretty much everything someone takes the time to write about development, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not sure what it is exactly the author i

by philipn 12y ago

I like pretty much everything someone takes the time to write about development, but this rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not sure what it is exactly the author is trying to express here: that engineers need to stay current on new, hot technologies? Everyone knows that. But then he seems to deride people who, based on his interviewing, haven't used a <new technology X> in production / in a new project. You can't have it both ways. You need to find a way to evaluate people and, through that evaluation, grok whether or not they can pick up a new technology that they aren't already familiar with. If you can't figure that out, your interview process has failed. Think about it: the complexity and difficulty of your own problems vastly exceed the difficulty a senior engineer faces learning a few new frameworks or APIs. If not, you're doing something pretty trivial. The best people I've ever worked with weren't people who a priori understood the technology stack we were working with -- instead, they have been seasoned engineers who know how go out and learn, and then apply what they already know in a new environment. This seems so obvious I feel silly even writing it down here, but this is on the front page, so it must be resonating with folks. What tptacek has said about .NET developers working at IT departments at huge organizations really rings true here. If you immediately write someone off because they work with technologies you don't work with[1] then you're doing it wrong. 1. Assuming you're not looking for a quick, contracted hired gun for something fairly straightforward.

sfk 12y ago
It's the pop culture mentality which is now worse than ever: [2004] http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 "So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture." "Like I said, it’s a pop culture. A commercial hit record for teenagers doesn’t have to have any particular musical merits. I think a lot of the success of various programming languages is expeditious gap-filling."
- jared314 12y ago
  It's been said that the population of programmers doubles every ~5 to 10 years. And, that loosely correlates to the hype cycle of "hot technologies". I don't think it's possible to avoid a pop culture with that many young and inexperienced programmers, especially with a cultural emphasis on self-training over mentoring.
mkozlows 12y ago
Exactly what you said. The other part that got me was his "as an entry-level programmer, be prepared for grinding, endless tedium." Maybe that's how his workplace treats junior devs, but the reality is that a developer with very little experience but a lot of skill is someone who can add a lot of value, and can find a workplace where they'll be able to do that. If you try to make a great junior dev "pay their dues," well, they have better options, with companies that will use them more sensibly.
- dcosson 12y ago
  I see where you're coming from, but in context I don't think the author was advocating for treating junior devs badly on purpose. More like everyone ends up banging their head against the wall sometimes as a developer, and you should be prepared for that if you're a new programmer and considering doing it as a career. In some sense it is paying dues but it's not imposed by anyone else, it's just that the less experienced you are the more often you get stuck. His related advice actually really resonated with me, basically just to be humble. "However with one or maybe two of the students I sensed overbearing confidence that now that could write some code and create prototypes they were valuable commodities in the industry." I've also come across this kind of person who's sure they can do no wrong, and there's no one worse to bring into an organization. Anybody that's gonna come in and do things their own way, not bothering to spend time learning how the team and codebase works and why, will cause a lot of friction. But when it's a junior dev it can be a lot more destructive because "their own way" will often be flat out bad as opposed to just incongruent with the way the rest of the team works.
- frostmatthew 12y ago
  > The other part that got me was his "as an entry-level programmer, be prepared for grinding, endless tedium." Tediousness is in the eye of the beholder. I enjoy coding, and as a junior developer (~3 years exp.) I get to spend the majority of my time doing that. When I look at the more senior developers all I see is that the better you get at writing software the less they have you write. Their days are filled with meetings, emails, triaging bugs, and reviewing other people's code.
- datashovel 12y ago
michaelchisari 12y ago
If you immediately write someone off because they work with technologies you don't work with[1] then you're doing it wrong. I've had a hell of a time interviewing for just this reason. For the first set of interviews, I was emphasizing my experience with patterns as opposed to technologies. That didn't work. I was routinely dismissed, despite decades of industry experience. When I decided to grind through the latest buzzwords, and build a few sample apps, that's when interviewers got much more positive. It's not how I would have interviewed people, and I do agree with you and tptacek, but it was an eye opening experience on how to play the game.
- aswanson 12y ago
  HR folks and interviewing engineers don't get this. Idioms, best practices and methodologies should be sought in senior people. Buzzword hiring shops are likely full of bad people to work with. Its a signal of lack of intelligence and perspective organizationally.
- bbody 12y ago
  The obsession with experience in Technology X always reminds me of the story recruiter who turned down someone for not having 10+ years of Rails experience (http://www.strategic-options.com/insight/you-cant-have-more-than-10-years-of-experience-on-rails/ http://www.strategic-options.com/insight/you-cant-have-more-...).
- ritchiea 12y ago
  It may be frustrating and require a lot of patience on your end, but if you look at it in another light it may be a sign you don't want to work at that company.

by philipn 12y ago

sfk 12y ago

It's the pop culture mentality which is now worse than ever: [2004] http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 "So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture." "Like I said, it’s a pop culture. A commercial hit record for teenagers doesn’t have to have any particular musical merits. I think a lot of the success of various programming languages is expeditious gap-filling."

jared314 12y ago
It's been said that the population of programmers doubles every ~5 to 10 years. And, that loosely correlates to the hype cycle of "hot technologies". I don't think it's possible to avoid a pop culture with that many young and inexperienced programmers, especially with a cultural emphasis on self-training over mentoring.

mkozlows 12y ago

Exactly what you said. The other part that got me was his "as an entry-level programmer, be prepared for grinding, endless tedium." Maybe that's how his workplace treats junior devs, but the reality is that a developer with very little experience but a lot of skill is someone who can add a lot of value, and can find a workplace where they'll be able to do that. If you try to make a great junior dev "pay their dues," well, they have better options, with companies that will use them more sensibly.

dcosson 12y ago
I see where you're coming from, but in context I don't think the author was advocating for treating junior devs badly on purpose. More like everyone ends up banging their head against the wall sometimes as a developer, and you should be prepared for that if you're a new programmer and considering doing it as a career. In some sense it is paying dues but it's not imposed by anyone else, it's just that the less experienced you are the more often you get stuck. His related advice actually really resonated with me, basically just to be humble. "However with one or maybe two of the students I sensed overbearing confidence that now that could write some code and create prototypes they were valuable commodities in the industry." I've also come across this kind of person who's sure they can do no wrong, and there's no one worse to bring into an organization. Anybody that's gonna come in and do things their own way, not bothering to spend time learning how the team and codebase works and why, will cause a lot of friction. But when it's a junior dev it can be a lot more destructive because "their own way" will often be flat out bad as opposed to just incongruent with the way the rest of the team works.
frostmatthew 12y ago
> The other part that got me was his "as an entry-level programmer, be prepared for grinding, endless tedium." Tediousness is in the eye of the beholder. I enjoy coding, and as a junior developer (~3 years exp.) I get to spend the majority of my time doing that. When I look at the more senior developers all I see is that the better you get at writing software the less they have you write. Their days are filled with meetings, emails, triaging bugs, and reviewing other people's code.
datashovel 12y ago

michaelchisari 12y ago

If you immediately write someone off because they work with technologies you don't work with[1] then you're doing it wrong. I've had a hell of a time interviewing for just this reason. For the first set of interviews, I was emphasizing my experience with patterns as opposed to technologies. That didn't work. I was routinely dismissed, despite decades of industry experience. When I decided to grind through the latest buzzwords, and build a few sample apps, that's when interviewers got much more positive. It's not how I would have interviewed people, and I do agree with you and tptacek, but it was an eye opening experience on how to play the game.

aswanson 12y ago
HR folks and interviewing engineers don't get this. Idioms, best practices and methodologies should be sought in senior people. Buzzword hiring shops are likely full of bad people to work with. Its a signal of lack of intelligence and perspective organizationally.
bbody 12y ago
The obsession with experience in Technology X always reminds me of the story recruiter who turned down someone for not having 10+ years of Rails experience (http://www.strategic-options.com/insight/you-cant-have-more-than-10-years-of-experience-on-rails/ http://www.strategic-options.com/insight/you-cant-have-more-...).
ritchiea 12y ago
It may be frustrating and require a lot of patience on your end, but if you look at it in another light it may be a sign you don't want to work at that company.