9 ms·

> I'm still against legalizing the worst of drugs like meth and heroin. It's funny you're against legalizing those two drugs. I take it you're not aware that b

by eddieh 12y ago

> I'm still against legalizing the worst of drugs like meth and heroin. It's funny you're against legalizing those two drugs. I take it you're not aware that both of the "worst" (whatever that is supposed to mean) drugs are actually legal in one form or another. Methamphetamine is available with a prescription and heroin/opioids are generally available with a prescription as well.

neikos 12y ago
I am sure by 'worst' he meant the relation between active dose and lethal dose, which IIRC are not so far apart.
- eddieh 12y ago
  If that is the measure of "worst" then alcohol, tylenol, nutmeg, and dextromethorphan containing cough medicine should be demonized too.
  - neikos 12y ago
    I'm all for Alcohol being less available, Paracetamol isn't my cup of tea either and discourage its use, a search for Nutmeg has brought nothing that seems to be supportive of it being overly dangerous, and a quick google for dextromethorphan also seeems to be inconclusive (wikipedia cites adverse effects in doses up to 75 the usual dose, so unless one can buy it in extra large capsules I don't think it is relevant). I have a hard time believing that you were serious about the latter two examples, given what I found.
    - eddieh 12y ago
      Well there is your problem. You don't actually know anything about the subject and a "quick google" is a poor substitute for actual knowledge. Nutmeg is a psychoactive substance at the right dose and at around 7-8 times that dose it can be lethal. That is more dangerous than alcohol. With dextromethorphan the ratio of a dose that gets you high to the dose that kills you is about the same as alcohol.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        > Nutmeg is a psychoactive substance at the right dose and at around 7-8 times that dose it can be lethal. How many people have died of a nutmeg overdose? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11343860 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11343860 seems to suggest that it's rare.
        eddieh 12y ago
        Fair enough, but that is a very different measure of "worst".
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Death from cough syrup overdose is well known and cautioned against in the drug taking community. > Paracetamol isn't my cup of tea either and discourage its use Why? When taken at the correct dose it's a safe, effective, pain killer. People do need to be careful to avoid overdose, which means that packets should probably be a bit clearer when they include paracetamol / acetaminophen.
      - neikos 12y ago
        Yes and that's why I said discourage and not something like 'prefer it to be banned'. To me it's a 'take if you think you really can't function without but be careful' kind of case.
- user_0001 12y ago
  I think he probably means "potential for addiction which can have serious implications to ones health"
- adrusi 12y ago
  Overdose potential is largely irrelevant for low-addiction substances.
roel_v 12y ago
"Meth" = crystal meth, which is not at all (in its practical properties, not chemically) like the methamphetamine that is available with a prescription (Ritalin and Adderal is what you're referring to). Crystal meth is a lot more addictive, as well as physically damaging, than amphetamines or methamphetamines taken orally. Likewise, it's disingenuous to compare heroin to morphine or oxycodone, even if they're chemically similar. Look, I'm on your side (the de-criminalisation side) but we need to use real arguments to win our case, not easily debunked or up for debate sophisms that our opponent easily can (and will) turn against us.
- runarb 12y ago
  You dont have to compare heroin to morphine or oxycodone. As i understands it Heroin is being used clinically in some countries under the name "Diamorphine".
- chimeracoder 12y ago
  Desoxyn is methamphetamine. Adderall is amphetamine, whereas Ritalin is methylphenidate, a completely different drug entirely. The difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine is largely in the effective dose needed by weight, because the extra methyl group lets the drug cross the blood-brain barrier more easily. It doesn't change the actual receptors it activates or the metabolic process of the drug, however. The real difference between Adderall and "street meth" has more to do with the means of ingestion (smoked vs oral) than the actual chemical compounds themselves.
  - roel_v 12y ago
    "Adderall is amphetamine, whereas Ritalin is methylphenidate, a completely different drug entirely." No. Methyplphenidate is as different from methamphetamine as methamphetamine is from amphetamine, which is to say that yes they're chemically different, but have similar effects that are different in the margins, like MDMA and 2CB, for example. "The real difference between Adderall and "street meth" has more to do with the means of ingestion (smoked vs oral) than the actual chemical compounds themselves." Which is exactly what I said.
- 12y ago
spiritplumber 12y ago
I used to be for full legalization, then had to deal with one of my employees being on meth. Being the big soppy that I am, I didn't fire her immediately and tried to help her get out of it. I figured that showing her some of the joys of life might do, but it didn't. I got her a new laptop, and she sold it to buy meth. At least she had the creance of formatting it, so eventually I got back the Steam credit. I got her an electronics kit, and she sold it to buy meth. I got her a small sailboat (only cost me $400 on craigslist, but I spent quite a few hours getting her seaworthy again) and she crashed it on the first outing after declaring that she had to come back to get a fix. Eventually I told her to leave when I discovered that she was stealing from the "go to rat shack and grab a bag of resistors" prepaid card. (Full disclosure: I don't do drugs because my brain chemistry is all over the place already, but am in favor of legalizing weed and shrooms - declaring an organism illegal only takes legitimity away from laws, and there are no hyperconcentration issues that way)
- Zigurd 12y ago
  Did they refuse treatment?
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    Yes.
- pcthrowaway 12y ago
  What the heck does this have to do with legalization? Your employee's performance was presumably suffering because of their addiction, and in any event, theft from your employer is grounds for dismissal. Your employee was not any less addicted due to the criminalization of drugs.
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    Meth is extremely addictive and should be hard to get a hold of, is all. If you have a better solution please share it. Getting stoned on weekends is fine, but I got to see the whole "faces of meth" before and after thing in person over a year, and it was not pretty.

by eddieh 12y ago

neikos 12y ago

I am sure by 'worst' he meant the relation between active dose and lethal dose, which IIRC are not so far apart.

eddieh 12y ago
If that is the measure of "worst" then alcohol, tylenol, nutmeg, and dextromethorphan containing cough medicine should be demonized too.
- neikos 12y ago
  I'm all for Alcohol being less available, Paracetamol isn't my cup of tea either and discourage its use, a search for Nutmeg has brought nothing that seems to be supportive of it being overly dangerous, and a quick google for dextromethorphan also seeems to be inconclusive (wikipedia cites adverse effects in doses up to 75 the usual dose, so unless one can buy it in extra large capsules I don't think it is relevant). I have a hard time believing that you were serious about the latter two examples, given what I found.
  - eddieh 12y ago
    Well there is your problem. You don't actually know anything about the subject and a "quick google" is a poor substitute for actual knowledge. Nutmeg is a psychoactive substance at the right dose and at around 7-8 times that dose it can be lethal. That is more dangerous than alcohol. With dextromethorphan the ratio of a dose that gets you high to the dose that kills you is about the same as alcohol.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > Nutmeg is a psychoactive substance at the right dose and at around 7-8 times that dose it can be lethal. How many people have died of a nutmeg overdose? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11343860 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11343860 seems to suggest that it's rare.
      - eddieh 12y ago
        Fair enough, but that is a very different measure of "worst".
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Death from cough syrup overdose is well known and cautioned against in the drug taking community. > Paracetamol isn't my cup of tea either and discourage its use Why? When taken at the correct dose it's a safe, effective, pain killer. People do need to be careful to avoid overdose, which means that packets should probably be a bit clearer when they include paracetamol / acetaminophen.
    - neikos 12y ago
      Yes and that's why I said discourage and not something like 'prefer it to be banned'. To me it's a 'take if you think you really can't function without but be careful' kind of case.
user_0001 12y ago
I think he probably means "potential for addiction which can have serious implications to ones health"
adrusi 12y ago
Overdose potential is largely irrelevant for low-addiction substances.

roel_v 12y ago

"Meth" = crystal meth, which is not at all (in its practical properties, not chemically) like the methamphetamine that is available with a prescription (Ritalin and Adderal is what you're referring to). Crystal meth is a lot more addictive, as well as physically damaging, than amphetamines or methamphetamines taken orally. Likewise, it's disingenuous to compare heroin to morphine or oxycodone, even if they're chemically similar. Look, I'm on your side (the de-criminalisation side) but we need to use real arguments to win our case, not easily debunked or up for debate sophisms that our opponent easily can (and will) turn against us.

runarb 12y ago
You dont have to compare heroin to morphine or oxycodone. As i understands it Heroin is being used clinically in some countries under the name "Diamorphine".
chimeracoder 12y ago
Desoxyn is methamphetamine. Adderall is amphetamine, whereas Ritalin is methylphenidate, a completely different drug entirely. The difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine is largely in the effective dose needed by weight, because the extra methyl group lets the drug cross the blood-brain barrier more easily. It doesn't change the actual receptors it activates or the metabolic process of the drug, however. The real difference between Adderall and "street meth" has more to do with the means of ingestion (smoked vs oral) than the actual chemical compounds themselves.
- roel_v 12y ago
  "Adderall is amphetamine, whereas Ritalin is methylphenidate, a completely different drug entirely." No. Methyplphenidate is as different from methamphetamine as methamphetamine is from amphetamine, which is to say that yes they're chemically different, but have similar effects that are different in the margins, like MDMA and 2CB, for example. "The real difference between Adderall and "street meth" has more to do with the means of ingestion (smoked vs oral) than the actual chemical compounds themselves." Which is exactly what I said.
12y ago

spiritplumber 12y ago

I used to be for full legalization, then had to deal with one of my employees being on meth. Being the big soppy that I am, I didn't fire her immediately and tried to help her get out of it. I figured that showing her some of the joys of life might do, but it didn't. I got her a new laptop, and she sold it to buy meth. At least she had the creance of formatting it, so eventually I got back the Steam credit. I got her an electronics kit, and she sold it to buy meth. I got her a small sailboat (only cost me $400 on craigslist, but I spent quite a few hours getting her seaworthy again) and she crashed it on the first outing after declaring that she had to come back to get a fix. Eventually I told her to leave when I discovered that she was stealing from the "go to rat shack and grab a bag of resistors" prepaid card. (Full disclosure: I don't do drugs because my brain chemistry is all over the place already, but am in favor of legalizing weed and shrooms - declaring an organism illegal only takes legitimity away from laws, and there are no hyperconcentration issues that way)

Zigurd 12y ago
Did they refuse treatment?
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  Yes.
pcthrowaway 12y ago
What the heck does this have to do with legalization? Your employee's performance was presumably suffering because of their addiction, and in any event, theft from your employer is grounds for dismissal. Your employee was not any less addicted due to the criminalization of drugs.
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  Meth is extremely addictive and should be hard to get a hold of, is all. If you have a better solution please share it. Getting stoned on weekends is fine, but I got to see the whole "faces of meth" before and after thing in person over a year, and it was not pretty.