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Man, even if well intentioned, this is bad. This kind of "passive" intrusion (combined with the not-so-passive, government sponsored intrusion) is why some Sout

Man, even if well intentioned, this is bad. This kind of "passive" intrusion (combined with the not-so-passive, government sponsored intrusion) is why some South American countries have a deep-settled distrust of the United States. Disclaimer: I was born in the US but grew up in Argentina. I have a pretty good grasp of the subject, but I'm obviously not free of bias. "What could possibly be bad about a young party of people looking to introduce some liberal, progressive changes?" you ask. Well, the problem is that helping a party that caters to younger people (read: rich and middle class young people; the working class in Argentina doesn't care about getting pot or being able to ride the Subte back from the clubs) can be seen as anti-government. And to a certain extent, it is. I won't go into what I believe about the current government or the opposition, but having foreign money influence a very vocal sector of the population is definitely meddling with the country internal affairs. At the end of the date, this is drop in the bucket compared to the amount of money channeled through the State department, but if you put all like efforts in the same bag then you have a very strong case to support the theories that the US government is actively trying to get Kirchner and her allies out of power. It's not as overt as a coup, but it's still bad.

abandonliberty 12y ago
At which point does it become bad intrusion? Is sharing ideas bad? Money? Offering, rather than being asked? What about something like the concept of democracy. Or, since the intrinsic value of a concept may be difficult to understand, let's consider the US constitution. It likely cost quite a bit to produce in inflation adjusted dollars. What if they ask us for it, they seek it out themselves, or we give it to them? I'm very confused. This is a very gray area with a fantastically slippery slope.
- s73v3r 12y ago
  "At which point does it become bad intrusion?" When it starts. "Is sharing ideas bad? Money? Offering, rather than being asked?" Ideas? Probably not. Money? Very yes. And before you try, there is a huge difference between ideas and monetary support, and money is not speech. "What about something like the concept of democracy." You're not a member of that democracy. It's like Israel donating to political campaigns here in the US. "I'm very confused. This is a very gray area with a fantastically slippery slope." No, it really isn't.
  - abandonliberty 12y ago
    Snarky. I'm curious if you believe that's an effective way to interact with another person? Would you treat someone like that in real life? How would you feel if someone responded to you that way? Would you find them convincing? In any case, you completely missed the point. Based on your model, we're not giving them any money, so there is no problem. Right? Or perhaps you'd actually like to RTFA and my comment, and make a constructive, intelligent, relevant reply.
- scardine 12y ago
  I hate to answer on political threads because I'm always downvoted into oblivion, but there we go... I'm writing from Brazil but lived for a while in Argentina and do business with people from other places in the subcontinent. I grew up during the iron years, where the military dictatorships here tortured and killed hundreds of dissidents, so most parents educated us to fear the police and avoid talking about politics at all costs. I guess this is why people don't like to participate in the civic life (hell, in Brazil people avoid even condo meetings because "I don't like controversy"). I think lobbying is frowned upon here because most people equate it with public bribing (not too far from the truth), which leaves us we with traditional bribing only. Go figure.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - dguaraglia 12y ago
    I always found the difference between Argentina and Brazil quite surprising. While I lived there (for seven years, in Santa Catarina) I felt like people were very divorced from politics, and would avoid the topic as much as possible. The only people that would engage me when I asked questions about politics (mostly because I wanted to learn the history of the country) were people from bigger cities (mostly Paulistas.) Argentina went completely the opposite way: once the dictatorship was over, people became incredibly political because we wanted to avoid the same kind of political vacuum that created the first coup. As a result, most people in Argentina will argue about politics, even when they don't have a completely educated opinion on the matter (but hey, that's how we work on most stuff anyway, heh.) Agreed on the conflation of lobbying with bribing. Unfortunately there's too much evidence suggesting that private interests putting money into politics is not a good idea.
- piamancini 12y ago
  Hi! Please read beyond the title that is simply clickbait. YC is not funding a party, they are backing a non for profit that develops democracyOS the software the party (as well as other parties around the world) uses.
  - abandonliberty 12y ago
    It appears that I'm one of the few people here that did. I invite you to reread my comment in that light. Sharing services or even ideas could be construed as monetary support or excessive intrusion. Hell even introducing democracy to a non-democratic place has been considered subversive.
toyg 12y ago
What these guys are doing, is simply an idea for which the time has come / is coming. There have been a number of similar attempts in Europe, in countries where US influence is not a factor (or rather is given for granted). I am very critical of US foreign policy and influence, and tbh, funding a "net democracy" party would be way too honest and "good" compared to their usual modus operandi; they have much more effective and risk-proof methods they use to effect change. For once, they don't back players who struggle to reach 3%; they only back horses with a realistic chance to get in power relatively quickly (see for example Ukraine). > you have a very strong case to support the theories that the US government is actively trying to get Kirchner and her allies out of power That being true has little to do with experiments in direct democracy which are being attempted all over the world. YC is not (yet) a CIA cover, as far as we know.
santisiri 12y ago
YC couldn't care less about the Kirchners... The goal is to build a governemnt for the internet society, a government for the world. We have lived in an infrastructure that basically consists of corporations and the nation state. The internet is an emergent superstructure that makes such infrastructure obsolete. That's the world we are looking at and hopefully aiming to provide governance to with free software.
- dguaraglia 12y ago
  I know that, but you can't divorce that from the fact that people (specially people in a government that is feeling under attack) will see any funding from a US-based entity as proof that the US is behind attempts to destabilize it. And to be fair: can you blame them? Every effort by tech companies to support "free speech" during the Arab Spring did end up in massive unrest. Why would the government of Argentina want something like that? Again, it's a question of 'optics', and the optics are already pretty tainted down there.
piamancini 12y ago
Hi! Firstly: not sure how aware you are of Argentina's working class, but the subte is a huge issue. Folks working late hours, doing night shifts, students that attend night uni because they work during the days have to get the bus back home, which not only takes longer but it's very dangerous. The PDR doesn't cater to middle classes. Actually the project that was pushed through congress because of DemocracyOS was the Worker's Party (PO) project to make better conditions for nurses in public hospitals. That said, YC is not funding the net party, they are backing a non for profit that develops DemocracyOS the software the party (and many other organisations around the world use). The title is click-bait and misleading. Finally, please do produce evidence that the US is actively trying to oust Kirchner.
- dguaraglia 12y ago
  Pia don't get me wrong, I think all the initiatives taken in isolation are for the better. Heck, I've been stuck in Belgrano after 2am and the only options I had to get back to Retiro were taking an expensive taxi ride or take two hours on a bus. I get it. As someone who spent countless hours in public hospitals in La Plata, I applaud giving nurses a tool to get the rewards they deserve. I wonder if my favorite nurse - Gladys - who cheered me for hours every day while I was laying on a bed feeling like crap, is using it. She grew up in a slum outside La Plata. I remember having conversations with her about what I was doing with my startup in Sacramento and how the whole thing flew right over her head: there's not much time to get acquainted with the internet when you work extra hours every day and you go back to a home without internet. And that's the general gist of it: all these things are great, but they are not really accessible to everyone. The people in Chaco or Formosa who barely have enough to support their families don't care about internet polls. People who first need to survive and barely have access to basic education won't have a vote in this "democracy". A democracy of the lucky few is no democracy. As to the funding: a greenback goes a long way in Argentina, and YC gives a substantial amount of money to their startups. I'll take your word, and that of your associates, that the money will be spent on the startup. I believe you, but that doesn't mean it can't be used as a straw man by some disgruntled government supporter looking to discredit your work. About the US influencing Argentinian politics... I'm not saying there's anything more sinister than the obvious influence exercised through diplomatic and economic means, but denying the US considers every country within its sphere of influence would be myopic. I can guarantee that the US doesn't like this new string of leftist South Americans governments one bit.

abandonliberty 12y ago

At which point does it become bad intrusion? Is sharing ideas bad? Money? Offering, rather than being asked? What about something like the concept of democracy. Or, since the intrinsic value of a concept may be difficult to understand, let's consider the US constitution. It likely cost quite a bit to produce in inflation adjusted dollars. What if they ask us for it, they seek it out themselves, or we give it to them? I'm very confused. This is a very gray area with a fantastically slippery slope.

s73v3r 12y ago
"At which point does it become bad intrusion?" When it starts. "Is sharing ideas bad? Money? Offering, rather than being asked?" Ideas? Probably not. Money? Very yes. And before you try, there is a huge difference between ideas and monetary support, and money is not speech. "What about something like the concept of democracy." You're not a member of that democracy. It's like Israel donating to political campaigns here in the US. "I'm very confused. This is a very gray area with a fantastically slippery slope." No, it really isn't.
- abandonliberty 12y ago
  Snarky. I'm curious if you believe that's an effective way to interact with another person? Would you treat someone like that in real life? How would you feel if someone responded to you that way? Would you find them convincing? In any case, you completely missed the point. Based on your model, we're not giving them any money, so there is no problem. Right? Or perhaps you'd actually like to RTFA and my comment, and make a constructive, intelligent, relevant reply.
scardine 12y ago
I hate to answer on political threads because I'm always downvoted into oblivion, but there we go... I'm writing from Brazil but lived for a while in Argentina and do business with people from other places in the subcontinent. I grew up during the iron years, where the military dictatorships here tortured and killed hundreds of dissidents, so most parents educated us to fear the police and avoid talking about politics at all costs. I guess this is why people don't like to participate in the civic life (hell, in Brazil people avoid even condo meetings because "I don't like controversy"). I think lobbying is frowned upon here because most people equate it with public bribing (not too far from the truth), which leaves us we with traditional bribing only. Go figure.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- dguaraglia 12y ago
  I always found the difference between Argentina and Brazil quite surprising. While I lived there (for seven years, in Santa Catarina) I felt like people were very divorced from politics, and would avoid the topic as much as possible. The only people that would engage me when I asked questions about politics (mostly because I wanted to learn the history of the country) were people from bigger cities (mostly Paulistas.) Argentina went completely the opposite way: once the dictatorship was over, people became incredibly political because we wanted to avoid the same kind of political vacuum that created the first coup. As a result, most people in Argentina will argue about politics, even when they don't have a completely educated opinion on the matter (but hey, that's how we work on most stuff anyway, heh.) Agreed on the conflation of lobbying with bribing. Unfortunately there's too much evidence suggesting that private interests putting money into politics is not a good idea.
piamancini 12y ago
Hi! Please read beyond the title that is simply clickbait. YC is not funding a party, they are backing a non for profit that develops democracyOS the software the party (as well as other parties around the world) uses.
- abandonliberty 12y ago
  It appears that I'm one of the few people here that did. I invite you to reread my comment in that light. Sharing services or even ideas could be construed as monetary support or excessive intrusion. Hell even introducing democracy to a non-democratic place has been considered subversive.

toyg 12y ago

What these guys are doing, is simply an idea for which the time has come / is coming. There have been a number of similar attempts in Europe, in countries where US influence is not a factor (or rather is given for granted). I am very critical of US foreign policy and influence, and tbh, funding a "net democracy" party would be way too honest and "good" compared to their usual modus operandi; they have much more effective and risk-proof methods they use to effect change. For once, they don't back players who struggle to reach 3%; they only back horses with a realistic chance to get in power relatively quickly (see for example Ukraine). > you have a very strong case to support the theories that the US government is actively trying to get Kirchner and her allies out of power That being true has little to do with experiments in direct democracy which are being attempted all over the world. YC is not (yet) a CIA cover, as far as we know.

santisiri 12y ago

YC couldn't care less about the Kirchners... The goal is to build a governemnt for the internet society, a government for the world. We have lived in an infrastructure that basically consists of corporations and the nation state. The internet is an emergent superstructure that makes such infrastructure obsolete. That's the world we are looking at and hopefully aiming to provide governance to with free software.

dguaraglia 12y ago
I know that, but you can't divorce that from the fact that people (specially people in a government that is feeling under attack) will see any funding from a US-based entity as proof that the US is behind attempts to destabilize it. And to be fair: can you blame them? Every effort by tech companies to support "free speech" during the Arab Spring did end up in massive unrest. Why would the government of Argentina want something like that? Again, it's a question of 'optics', and the optics are already pretty tainted down there.

piamancini 12y ago

Hi! Firstly: not sure how aware you are of Argentina's working class, but the subte is a huge issue. Folks working late hours, doing night shifts, students that attend night uni because they work during the days have to get the bus back home, which not only takes longer but it's very dangerous. The PDR doesn't cater to middle classes. Actually the project that was pushed through congress because of DemocracyOS was the Worker's Party (PO) project to make better conditions for nurses in public hospitals. That said, YC is not funding the net party, they are backing a non for profit that develops DemocracyOS the software the party (and many other organisations around the world use). The title is click-bait and misleading. Finally, please do produce evidence that the US is actively trying to oust Kirchner.

dguaraglia 12y ago
Pia don't get me wrong, I think all the initiatives taken in isolation are for the better. Heck, I've been stuck in Belgrano after 2am and the only options I had to get back to Retiro were taking an expensive taxi ride or take two hours on a bus. I get it. As someone who spent countless hours in public hospitals in La Plata, I applaud giving nurses a tool to get the rewards they deserve. I wonder if my favorite nurse - Gladys - who cheered me for hours every day while I was laying on a bed feeling like crap, is using it. She grew up in a slum outside La Plata. I remember having conversations with her about what I was doing with my startup in Sacramento and how the whole thing flew right over her head: there's not much time to get acquainted with the internet when you work extra hours every day and you go back to a home without internet. And that's the general gist of it: all these things are great, but they are not really accessible to everyone. The people in Chaco or Formosa who barely have enough to support their families don't care about internet polls. People who first need to survive and barely have access to basic education won't have a vote in this "democracy". A democracy of the lucky few is no democracy. As to the funding: a greenback goes a long way in Argentina, and YC gives a substantial amount of money to their startups. I'll take your word, and that of your associates, that the money will be spent on the startup. I believe you, but that doesn't mean it can't be used as a straw man by some disgruntled government supporter looking to discredit your work. About the US influencing Argentinian politics... I'm not saying there's anything more sinister than the obvious influence exercised through diplomatic and economic means, but denying the US considers every country within its sphere of influence would be myopic. I can guarantee that the US doesn't like this new string of leftist South Americans governments one bit.