6 ms·

Nothing's wrong with spinning up more AWS boxes. If it costs 300$ annually to solve a problem that would cost 5k$ in development to fix, I believe it's a wise c

by pothibo 12y ago

Nothing's wrong with spinning up more AWS boxes. If it costs 300$ annually to solve a problem that would cost 5k$ in development to fix, I believe it's a wise choice. Yeah, down the line you will eventually have to do optimization, but you will prioritize.

rosspanda 12y ago
A agree somewhat, but I've seen 10 box systems that could run on raspberry pie with good code
- lmm 12y ago
  I've seen them. I've worked on them. But again, where's the cost/benefit?
  - nirvdrum 12y ago
    I'm hardly what most environmentalists would call an "environmentalist", but one cost here is the increase in carbon footprint. Of course, to the company the cost/benefit analysis errs on the side of just spinning up more boxes. But from a larger perspective, taking some extra time to make more efficient use of machines could have a drastic impact. Many optimizations don't require months to implement. Many of those are even avoidable with a bit of foresight.
- pothibo 12y ago
  I wasn't advocating for badly written code to run on a whole datacenter. I was just pointing the alternative with the assumption that the code was somewhat healthy and adding one new instance to cover the sub-optimization wasn't a big deal. Of course, if you have 10k users and it runs on 3 machines, you got a problem which no amount of boxes can solve.
pointernil 12y ago
In a certain, quite limited model of economics that could actually be named as "wise". Once a more holistic view is taken, wide spread total costs and benefits are taken into consideration, once costs are not only defined as money flowing out of my own pocket, once not only "Gesinnungsethik" but also and more importantly "Verantwortungsethik" gets applied, well, in such a world we would probably wish, that Amazon would change its pricing policy to: - get the first 2-5 AWS instances almost for free - and pay for the next few 100 exorbitantly much more money. We all would benefit from the cultural, technological and social changes this would help to spark, I think. But who am I to question current culturally entrenched "economic" thinking...
- icebraining 12y ago
  What social changes would you expect from the pricing policy changes of marginal EC2 instances?
  - pointernil 12y ago
    "social changes from the pricing policy changes of marginal EC2 instances" sounds ridiculous when given this context, right? It changes when the context are not "marginal EC2 instances" but instead energy and resources burning machines, used (often) by ignorant software developers and their organizations allowed and actually encouraged, partly even actively driven into such purely self beneficial behavior models. For a definition of social: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social ... obviously driving software development into a scarcity of computing power would haven "social" consequences: in the development teams f.e. interactions and priorities would need to change dramatically. But maybe software development turned almost into a "commodity" because of the commoditization of computing power available to even the most ineffective mental artifact aka program. And that in turn was possible in large extent by off-loading the true costs of assembly / dis-assembly / disposal and the resources needed to build those machines onto people in underdeveloped regions of the world... Now what could the social change be, the more expensive computing devices could allow for in those regions? If people cared about "effectivity" not only via a detour to "uh, i need to recharge my phone, again?!" f.e. but essentially because because they would have to pay the true cost for their ineffective setup of hardware and software? What could the social change be... ;)
    - icebraining 12y ago
      It sounds ridiculous because Amazon doesn't really control anything. The only result of their pricing change would be the switching to a competitor. It changes when the context are not "marginal EC2 instances" but instead energy and resources burning machines, used (often) by ignorant software developers and their organizations allowed and actually encouraged, partly even actively driven into such purely self beneficial behavior models. Fair enough, and I agree with you that more reflection is needed on the ethics of our industry. No argument there. That said, I think you're miscalculating the result of such a switch. The fact is that servers are pretty efficient. Say one of the developers commutes to work, doing ~12 miles each way on her/his Prius. If he works for two days optimizing the code, the energy cost of his commute will be ~130kWh. With that same energy, you can run a PowerEdge R420 on full power (CPU benchmark) for almost 40 days! And remember that each of those would power a bunch of EC2 instances. The reason EC2 instances are cheap is because they're actually cheap, both in terms of energy and resources.

by pothibo 12y ago

rosspanda 12y ago

A agree somewhat, but I've seen 10 box systems that could run on raspberry pie with good code

lmm 12y ago
I've seen them. I've worked on them. But again, where's the cost/benefit?
- nirvdrum 12y ago
  I'm hardly what most environmentalists would call an "environmentalist", but one cost here is the increase in carbon footprint. Of course, to the company the cost/benefit analysis errs on the side of just spinning up more boxes. But from a larger perspective, taking some extra time to make more efficient use of machines could have a drastic impact. Many optimizations don't require months to implement. Many of those are even avoidable with a bit of foresight.
pothibo 12y ago
I wasn't advocating for badly written code to run on a whole datacenter. I was just pointing the alternative with the assumption that the code was somewhat healthy and adding one new instance to cover the sub-optimization wasn't a big deal. Of course, if you have 10k users and it runs on 3 machines, you got a problem which no amount of boxes can solve.

pointernil 12y ago

In a certain, quite limited model of economics that could actually be named as "wise". Once a more holistic view is taken, wide spread total costs and benefits are taken into consideration, once costs are not only defined as money flowing out of my own pocket, once not only "Gesinnungsethik" but also and more importantly "Verantwortungsethik" gets applied, well, in such a world we would probably wish, that Amazon would change its pricing policy to: - get the first 2-5 AWS instances almost for free - and pay for the next few 100 exorbitantly much more money. We all would benefit from the cultural, technological and social changes this would help to spark, I think. But who am I to question current culturally entrenched "economic" thinking...

icebraining 12y ago
What social changes would you expect from the pricing policy changes of marginal EC2 instances?
- pointernil 12y ago
  "social changes from the pricing policy changes of marginal EC2 instances" sounds ridiculous when given this context, right? It changes when the context are not "marginal EC2 instances" but instead energy and resources burning machines, used (often) by ignorant software developers and their organizations allowed and actually encouraged, partly even actively driven into such purely self beneficial behavior models. For a definition of social: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social ... obviously driving software development into a scarcity of computing power would haven "social" consequences: in the development teams f.e. interactions and priorities would need to change dramatically. But maybe software development turned almost into a "commodity" because of the commoditization of computing power available to even the most ineffective mental artifact aka program. And that in turn was possible in large extent by off-loading the true costs of assembly / dis-assembly / disposal and the resources needed to build those machines onto people in underdeveloped regions of the world... Now what could the social change be, the more expensive computing devices could allow for in those regions? If people cared about "effectivity" not only via a detour to "uh, i need to recharge my phone, again?!" f.e. but essentially because because they would have to pay the true cost for their ineffective setup of hardware and software? What could the social change be... ;)
  - icebraining 12y ago
    It sounds ridiculous because Amazon doesn't really control anything. The only result of their pricing change would be the switching to a competitor. It changes when the context are not "marginal EC2 instances" but instead energy and resources burning machines, used (often) by ignorant software developers and their organizations allowed and actually encouraged, partly even actively driven into such purely self beneficial behavior models. Fair enough, and I agree with you that more reflection is needed on the ethics of our industry. No argument there. That said, I think you're miscalculating the result of such a switch. The fact is that servers are pretty efficient. Say one of the developers commutes to work, doing ~12 miles each way on her/his Prius. If he works for two days optimizing the code, the energy cost of his commute will be ~130kWh. With that same energy, you can run a PowerEdge R420 on full power (CPU benchmark) for almost 40 days! And remember that each of those would power a bunch of EC2 instances. The reason EC2 instances are cheap is because they're actually cheap, both in terms of energy and resources.