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Neither of your arguments is the problem. The real problem is a system, where it only takes three mutually self-assured groupthinkers, under stress, who have n

Neither of your arguments is the problem. The real problem is a system, where it only takes three mutually self-assured groupthinkers, under stress, who have never seen a dead man, woman or child, to push a button and kill. It might seem like unhappy accidents, but under these circumstances they are inevitable, and whoever set this system up should be judged and found guilty. (The next level is that these systems grow this ugly exactly because there is no specific person responsible for that. The guilt is spread out thinly such that no one's moral sense is triggered. Exactly how the machinery of concentration camps worked, everyone is doing their job and at the end of the machine, people die). I believe that only solution to this is to have a personal moral code, and if your higher ups are ordering you to do something that you know isn't right, fk the orders. But the army know this, and attracts losers that can be brainwashed so that belonging to army becomes their only way of life. Saying no to order then means being expelled from whole your life. So they rather press the button and kill twenty mothers in Afgnanistan.

cmdkeen 12y ago
But who was supposed to say no? The SF officer on the ground who did not have line of sight but was being told they had positive ID on military age males, weapons and no children? Or the helicopter pilots who were given a target, and who don't have the technology to provide any better or worse information? The problem is that US Forces are almost permanently on a overkill strategy where the answer to this problem was using Hellfire missiles, in the same way as dropping artillery into Iraqi towns in the 2003 invasion. Taliban dismounts from a SUV die quickly against helicopters, taking time to check the vehicles were hostile via an overflight or "warning shot" should be a valid tactic. But that is not for a specific flight commander to make.
Bahamut 12y ago
Can't speak for other MOSs, but at least for infantry, infantry are exposed to videos where people die during training - one video I remember seeing was from the point of view from an insurgent, and it showed his comrades & him launching an assault on some Marines, only to promptly run away from a hail of gunfire. The person whose perspective is seen dies quickly. I suspect that most training in the US military show such content, in order to avoid sudden shock from experiencing the situation for the first time. The US military trains as close to real scenarios as it can, so that the same decision making happens during actual combat situations. Contrary to what you might believe, the training often stresses to use sound judgment - there are many accidental casualties in war, sometimes due to miscommunication. One story that a Marine told me was that in Afghanistan, while he was on watch at a vehicle checkpoint, a truck was speeding towards his post - his battle buddy and him were signaling to the driver to slow down/stop. The driver did not stop - they were forced to try to incapacitate the vehicle, which ended up killing the driver. There were no explosives, but you cannot know which vehicle has any - this is part of the fog of war. Contrast that with two recent Navy Cross awards for two Marines who died in the same situation in Iraq, except the vehicle was a suicide machine meant to do significant damage to the base. War is not black and white - in war, the only thing people care about is helping get their buddies home safely. When it comes down to it, almost every person made the choice to be ready to sacrifice if necessary to achieve this. It is at least an honest choice when contrasted with those who have no experience with such a world commenting without the proper perspective.
knowaveragejoe 12y ago
> But the army know this, and attracts losers that can be brainwashed so that belonging to army becomes their only way of life. This is only true of grunts. I think you would be surprised as to the level of intelligence present in the ranks of the military. Some of the most poignant writings on life, death, war and peace that I've ever read were written by either current or former members. Case in point(and I urge you to read the entirety with an open mind before making a judgement): http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/how-we-learned-to-kill.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/how-we-lear...
outworlder 12y ago
No, the problem is that there is an armed robot equipped with hellfire missiles in a foreign country dispensing capital punishment. We are way, way past the point of talking about a 'moral code' for people pushing the actual buttons. There shouldn't be any buttons being pushed at all.

cmdkeen 12y ago

But who was supposed to say no? The SF officer on the ground who did not have line of sight but was being told they had positive ID on military age males, weapons and no children? Or the helicopter pilots who were given a target, and who don't have the technology to provide any better or worse information? The problem is that US Forces are almost permanently on a overkill strategy where the answer to this problem was using Hellfire missiles, in the same way as dropping artillery into Iraqi towns in the 2003 invasion. Taliban dismounts from a SUV die quickly against helicopters, taking time to check the vehicles were hostile via an overflight or "warning shot" should be a valid tactic. But that is not for a specific flight commander to make.

Bahamut 12y ago

Can't speak for other MOSs, but at least for infantry, infantry are exposed to videos where people die during training - one video I remember seeing was from the point of view from an insurgent, and it showed his comrades & him launching an assault on some Marines, only to promptly run away from a hail of gunfire. The person whose perspective is seen dies quickly. I suspect that most training in the US military show such content, in order to avoid sudden shock from experiencing the situation for the first time. The US military trains as close to real scenarios as it can, so that the same decision making happens during actual combat situations. Contrary to what you might believe, the training often stresses to use sound judgment - there are many accidental casualties in war, sometimes due to miscommunication. One story that a Marine told me was that in Afghanistan, while he was on watch at a vehicle checkpoint, a truck was speeding towards his post - his battle buddy and him were signaling to the driver to slow down/stop. The driver did not stop - they were forced to try to incapacitate the vehicle, which ended up killing the driver. There were no explosives, but you cannot know which vehicle has any - this is part of the fog of war. Contrast that with two recent Navy Cross awards for two Marines who died in the same situation in Iraq, except the vehicle was a suicide machine meant to do significant damage to the base. War is not black and white - in war, the only thing people care about is helping get their buddies home safely. When it comes down to it, almost every person made the choice to be ready to sacrifice if necessary to achieve this. It is at least an honest choice when contrasted with those who have no experience with such a world commenting without the proper perspective.

knowaveragejoe 12y ago

> But the army know this, and attracts losers that can be brainwashed so that belonging to army becomes their only way of life. This is only true of grunts. I think you would be surprised as to the level of intelligence present in the ranks of the military. Some of the most poignant writings on life, death, war and peace that I've ever read were written by either current or former members. Case in point(and I urge you to read the entirety with an open mind before making a judgement): http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/how-we-learned-to-kill.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/how-we-lear...

outworlder 12y ago

No, the problem is that there is an armed robot equipped with hellfire missiles in a foreign country dispensing capital punishment. We are way, way past the point of talking about a 'moral code' for people pushing the actual buttons. There shouldn't be any buttons being pushed at all.