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> We need to present the mathematics that is most useful to the most students. I wish it weren't this way! Mathematics is a wide and fascinating field, and I t

by jmilloy 12y ago

> We need to present the mathematics that is most useful to the most students. I wish it weren't this way! Mathematics is a wide and fascinating field, and I think more students could find interest if our schooling reflected that. But moving some of the detail and drudgery that is the calculus sequence to subject matter that requires it, in order to make way for linear algebra, is a great start.

jeffreyrogers 12y ago
I agree completely, but calculus touches so much of advanced math that at some point you have to learn it in depth (assuming you actually want to learn advanced mathematics). I'd argue that linear algebra is a more interesting subject for most people, but calculus contains more important ideas that are crucial if you intend to continue studying mathematics.
- jmilloy 12y ago
  I have a major in Mathematics, and I truly didn't need calculus after the multivariable/vector calculus course I had to take my Freshman fall. Why did I have to do so much if it wasn't going to be necessary until graduate school at the earliest, or perhaps never depending on specialization? And why was it a prerequisite for my other math courses (in algebra, topology, real analysis, number theory, and combinatorics)?
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    How was topology motivated without talking about generalizations of limits? (Honest question, no snark.)
    - jmilloy 12y ago
      It's a good question. I think my first topology course, like in many intro analysis courses, shared concepts from calculus without requiring any previous expertise from our calculus courses. A rigorous approach to real analysis or point-set topology will be very set-theoretic, and you build the general definitions of continuity, compactness, etc from the ground up. So, I would have used concepts from my analysis and topology courses in calculus, if only it had been taught in the other order. I guess it feels like limits are a rigorous foundation for calculus, but they are not calculus. In any case, I didn't need anything from differential or integral calculus (or that entire required course developing the theoretical basis for Stokes...), which is what I mean to say.
mahyarm 12y ago
Mathematics is not taught well at all. Read a calculus textbook and you find out most of the words are undefined to most students, which are then taught to them 2-3 calculus classes later in 'discrete math'. I think starting with discrete math first, where you teach what sets are, how proofs work and so on would be a good start. Or make your textbooks usable and not just containers of problem sets with unreadable extra paper inserted to make your back hurt more. Or make the target students and not their professors.

by jmilloy 12y ago

jeffreyrogers 12y ago

I agree completely, but calculus touches so much of advanced math that at some point you have to learn it in depth (assuming you actually want to learn advanced mathematics). I'd argue that linear algebra is a more interesting subject for most people, but calculus contains more important ideas that are crucial if you intend to continue studying mathematics.

jmilloy 12y ago
I have a major in Mathematics, and I truly didn't need calculus after the multivariable/vector calculus course I had to take my Freshman fall. Why did I have to do so much if it wasn't going to be necessary until graduate school at the earliest, or perhaps never depending on specialization? And why was it a prerequisite for my other math courses (in algebra, topology, real analysis, number theory, and combinatorics)?
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  How was topology motivated without talking about generalizations of limits? (Honest question, no snark.)
  - jmilloy 12y ago
    It's a good question. I think my first topology course, like in many intro analysis courses, shared concepts from calculus without requiring any previous expertise from our calculus courses. A rigorous approach to real analysis or point-set topology will be very set-theoretic, and you build the general definitions of continuity, compactness, etc from the ground up. So, I would have used concepts from my analysis and topology courses in calculus, if only it had been taught in the other order. I guess it feels like limits are a rigorous foundation for calculus, but they are not calculus. In any case, I didn't need anything from differential or integral calculus (or that entire required course developing the theoretical basis for Stokes...), which is what I mean to say.

mahyarm 12y ago

Mathematics is not taught well at all. Read a calculus textbook and you find out most of the words are undefined to most students, which are then taught to them 2-3 calculus classes later in 'discrete math'. I think starting with discrete math first, where you teach what sets are, how proofs work and so on would be a good start. Or make your textbooks usable and not just containers of problem sets with unreadable extra paper inserted to make your back hurt more. Or make the target students and not their professors.