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What the US should do now in Iraq is learn some restraint, diplomacy, and humility. In other words, we should learn the lessons everybody but the military had

What the US should do now in Iraq is learn some restraint, diplomacy, and humility. In other words, we should learn the lessons everybody but the military had already learned from Vietnam.

knowaveragejoe 12y ago
It might be a surprise to you, but it is the military who learned the most from Vietnam. It is the American public and our politicians who seem to have learned the least. The military is simply doing its job when presented with a task, whether it was spawned out of noble intentions or kneejerk reactionism. They know that they must be careful in pursuing anything that looks vaguely like a target, because the sentiment of the population is far more important than a small victory like that. Hence the multi-billion-dollar communications and failsafes chain described in this article. This is a key concept that seems to be going over people's heads in this thread. Yes, it failed in this case and in many others. But the very fact that it exists at all and is sophisticated as it is should be a clue as to the lessons learned. The military is achieving far more value with far less collateral damage. Contrast this with the Soviet's preferred method of waging war against the Afghani Mujahideen, which was to kill every living thing and totally and utterly raze every structure in the direction from which they were shot at from. So again, can you conceive a better alternative for dealing with reality as it is now? Time travel is not possible, answers like "don't invade other countries" are pretty worthless. Nobody wants this war(well, nobody with a soul and a modicum of compassion), but it is what it is, and as far I know, it's the best solution to minimize civilian deaths.
- pjc50 12y ago
  The military is simply doing its job when presented with a task That was presented as a defense of My Lai and was a not successful argument. The military is achieving far more value You're going to need to quantify this statement, because from this distance it doesn't look like much is being achieved at all. Yemen has fallen to the rebels and ISIS still hold much of northern Iraq. answers like "don't invade other countries" are pretty worthless. Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    > Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem. > It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! This quote seems very fitting here. It is indeed a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule - just one that doesn't bring in profits.
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    > That was presented as a defense of My Lai and was a not successful argument. I'm not sure how that's relevant. The "job" here being of far larger scope along the lines of "prevent future terrorist attacks". If you're the military presented with that task, you will go down generally the same route that US has, though perhaps without the same level of consideration for innocents. The real "solution"(which is only in retrospect) is to identify the factors leading to extremism in the first place(American foreign policy) and change them. But that wasn't done, so here we are. Are you to argue that we simply stop trying to fight them on their soil? Instead we hope they don't retaliate? > Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem. I totally agree, but it's not applicable to the current situation. I'm not sure why people think this is a "solution" rather than a "yeah, we should have done that instead".
    - pjc50 12y ago
      same level of consideration for innocents I'm trying to avoid Godwin territory here, but widespread ignoring of the Geneva conventions is not an excuse. It's not just a consideration, it's international law. https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5 https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a4214125... "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities ... [prohibited] violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds" "the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples" It is convenient for the US to deem anyone in the same building as a combatant to be "involved in hostilities". That does not make it true, and indeed it's a serious erosion of the concept of "civilian". simply stop trying to fight them on their soil? Instead we hope they don't retaliate? Are people more or less likely to retaliate if you murder their relatives and countrymen? This seems to be a fundamental point of disagreement. In the end, coalition forces have withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. Drone strikes are ongoing in Yemen and Pakistan; I believe NATO airstrikes have been carried out against ISIS positions in Iraq but not Syria. Turkey are holding at the border with occasional sorties. Coalition forces should resist the idea of getting involved in Nigeria, Syria, etc. and withdraw from the internal conflicts in Pakistan and Yemen. Supply defensive assistance to places that request it (Kurdistan and the Yazidis), but no further.
- tessierashpool 12y ago
  So again, can you conceive a better alternative for dealing with reality as it is now? Of course I can. Learn some humility, diplomacy, and restraint. The military has no business in Iraq and needs to leave. Iraqis have said so countless times. You're assuming this is a military task. But I said "learn diplomacy." If your "reply" to a "learn diplomacy" comment assumes that this situation remains a military responsibility, then your reply is not a reply at all. "Learn diplomacy" means "use diplomats." And it also means talk to some countries who know how to do so successfully, and follow their lead. "Learn humility" means "stop assuming that this is America's problem to solve." It's not our business and all we're doing is fucking it up.
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    > Of course I can. Learn some humility, diplomacy, and restraint. Huh. The fact that there is a chain of command that this decision must pass sounds like the idea of restraint is not lost on these people. In fact it seems quite the opposite, that there is a directive for restraint. It's not up to the pilots and spotters, no matter how gung-ho they may be(many aren't at all, unlike what is portrayed in the article). The billions the US is pumping into their communities in the form of assistance seems like some form of diplomacy to me, or at least due diligence for the massive social disturbance. I could be wrong. You'll have to explain to the people receiving said aid that it's either misguided or not enough, though. > The military has no business in Iraq and needs to leave. Iraqis have said so countless times. We're talking about Afghanistan, not Iraq. The US involvement in Iraq was totally illegal, but it's worth noting that many Iraqis definitely wanted us there after the invasion. They certainly want us there now. > Learn diplomacy" means "use diplomats." And it also means talk to some countries who know how to do so successfully, and follow their lead. This statement sounds buried within ideology rather than facts. The US has a massive diplomat corps and engages in some form of diplomacy every day with every country on the planet, save a few. Even moreso in Afghanistan and Iraq. You'll recall that diplomacy did not work shortly after 9/11 when Afghanistan was identified as a host country to Al Queda. Again, the situation is as it is today. We cannot go back and alter the past. So what better way is there to proceed? The US spends billions on aid and reconstruction efforts in both countries, are they simply supposed to ignore threats?
- saiya-jin 12y ago
  nobody wants this war? are you kidding sir? there is a lot to earn on every single war, these one being no exception. All companies manufacturing weapons, ammunition, subcontractors etc. Stop wars, they are out of job. Is it utterly immoral? But yes of course. Is it clear to most people outside of US? Not much doubt there. Is this going to happen again? You bet it will. Why? Just because US can. There was not so long ago perception that US is the world police, the good guys. Well, these days, you guys are working hard to convince all the rest that China might be more suitable for this task. Is it really hard to see how much evil is US creating in our tiny world? Did it at least once to people like you occurred, that you really, REALLY cannot well justify waging war half across the world, for laughable reasons?
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    > Is it clear to most people outside of US? Not much doubt there. And yet all these operations are run from Europe. Where are the protests by Europeans?
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    Did you stop reading immediately after the word "war" or something? I'm really shocked by the level of hivemindism on HN these days. I'm all for idealism but it really needs to be tempered with reality for any real progress to be made towards a better future with less war, more equality, etc.
- hereonbusiness 12y ago
  The beginning of the 21st century shall always be remembered as the moment humanity became really sophisticated at killing poor people who live in mud houses from far far away.
  - josefresco 12y ago
    ...poor people with incredibly wealthy friends who fund their misdeeds. So yeah, relatively speaking they (the foot soldiers) may be poor but those controlling all sides are not. And I'd say the 90's was the beginning of the "cruise missile" guided bomb era of warfare.
    - hereonbusiness 12y ago
      So you're saying we should just go and kill those incredibly wealthy friends of theirs instead of bothering with the foot soldiers?
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    Realistically, I think that will be a footnote to the explosion of computers and the Internet - and not because the "winner writes history"(which is rapidly becoming moot as time goes on) but because in the grand scheme of things it's nearly inconsequential compared to developments in doing the exact opposite of killing. Your notion also ignores the fact that the reason this exists in the first place is partially the desire to eliminate collateral damage, not perpetuate more of it.
    - hereonbusiness 12y ago
      > Realistically, I think that will be a footnote to the explosion of computers and the Internet. > Your notion also ignores the fact that the reason this exists in the first place is partially the desire to eliminate collateral damage, not perpetuate more of it. Well we'll see, human lives do seem like they're not worth much, especially those in the 3rd world, out of sight out of mind like another poster said. I mean you could probably kill a lot more of those people with the world standing idly by as long as you have some kind of justification, they can be invaded, bombed, displaced, held indefinitely and tortured with impunity, but now they are trying really hard to only kill as many of them as they really want to, are they not merciful ... But what is the end goal here, what do they hope to accomplish, when will the killing end? I think that the US government is in somewhat of a pickle, the war on terror is now being fought for more than a decade, has cost trillions of dollars and thousands of soldiers lives, and for what? There's no end in sight, no easy way out, heck we may be even worse off than before, we have an Al Qaeda offshoot building a state of their own as we speak. You can't just pull out completely and cut your losses because this might come back to haunt us all. The only thing they seem to be able to come up with right now is to further streamline killing to prolong the status quo as long as possible, and even that doesn't seem to be going well. How the hell are we going to resolve this? Or maybe I'm just crazy and this will all just blow over after a couple more years of targeted killings, all those islamists may just give up and go home to live peaceful lives, who knows.
- tessierashpool 12y ago
  knowaveragejoe: "the billions the US is pumping into these communities" the actual article: "$5000 and a goat"
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    What a frustratingly simplistic retort.

What the US should do now in Iraq is learn some restraint, diplomacy, and humility. In other words, we should learn the lessons everybody but the military had already learned from Vietnam.

knowaveragejoe 12y ago

It might be a surprise to you, but it is the military who learned the most from Vietnam. It is the American public and our politicians who seem to have learned the least. The military is simply doing its job when presented with a task, whether it was spawned out of noble intentions or kneejerk reactionism. They know that they must be careful in pursuing anything that looks vaguely like a target, because the sentiment of the population is far more important than a small victory like that. Hence the multi-billion-dollar communications and failsafes chain described in this article. This is a key concept that seems to be going over people's heads in this thread. Yes, it failed in this case and in many others. But the very fact that it exists at all and is sophisticated as it is should be a clue as to the lessons learned. The military is achieving far more value with far less collateral damage. Contrast this with the Soviet's preferred method of waging war against the Afghani Mujahideen, which was to kill every living thing and totally and utterly raze every structure in the direction from which they were shot at from. So again, can you conceive a better alternative for dealing with reality as it is now? Time travel is not possible, answers like "don't invade other countries" are pretty worthless. Nobody wants this war(well, nobody with a soul and a modicum of compassion), but it is what it is, and as far I know, it's the best solution to minimize civilian deaths.

pjc50 12y ago
The military is simply doing its job when presented with a task That was presented as a defense of My Lai and was a not successful argument. The military is achieving far more value You're going to need to quantify this statement, because from this distance it doesn't look like much is being achieved at all. Yemen has fallen to the rebels and ISIS still hold much of northern Iraq. answers like "don't invade other countries" are pretty worthless. Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem. > It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it! This quote seems very fitting here. It is indeed a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule - just one that doesn't bring in profits.
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  > That was presented as a defense of My Lai and was a not successful argument. I'm not sure how that's relevant. The "job" here being of far larger scope along the lines of "prevent future terrorist attacks". If you're the military presented with that task, you will go down generally the same route that US has, though perhaps without the same level of consideration for innocents. The real "solution"(which is only in retrospect) is to identify the factors leading to extremism in the first place(American foreign policy) and change them. But that wasn't done, so here we are. Are you to argue that we simply stop trying to fight them on their soil? Instead we hope they don't retaliate? > Absolutely not! It's a simple, clear, actionable, moral rule. It's also a core principle of international law. I'm not sure why this is so much of a problem. I totally agree, but it's not applicable to the current situation. I'm not sure why people think this is a "solution" rather than a "yeah, we should have done that instead".
  - pjc50 12y ago
    same level of consideration for innocents I'm trying to avoid Godwin territory here, but widespread ignoring of the Geneva conventions is not an excuse. It's not just a consideration, it's international law. https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5 https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a4214125... "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities ... [prohibited] violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds" "the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples" It is convenient for the US to deem anyone in the same building as a combatant to be "involved in hostilities". That does not make it true, and indeed it's a serious erosion of the concept of "civilian". simply stop trying to fight them on their soil? Instead we hope they don't retaliate? Are people more or less likely to retaliate if you murder their relatives and countrymen? This seems to be a fundamental point of disagreement. In the end, coalition forces have withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan. Drone strikes are ongoing in Yemen and Pakistan; I believe NATO airstrikes have been carried out against ISIS positions in Iraq but not Syria. Turkey are holding at the border with occasional sorties. Coalition forces should resist the idea of getting involved in Nigeria, Syria, etc. and withdraw from the internal conflicts in Pakistan and Yemen. Supply defensive assistance to places that request it (Kurdistan and the Yazidis), but no further.
tessierashpool 12y ago
So again, can you conceive a better alternative for dealing with reality as it is now? Of course I can. Learn some humility, diplomacy, and restraint. The military has no business in Iraq and needs to leave. Iraqis have said so countless times. You're assuming this is a military task. But I said "learn diplomacy." If your "reply" to a "learn diplomacy" comment assumes that this situation remains a military responsibility, then your reply is not a reply at all. "Learn diplomacy" means "use diplomats." And it also means talk to some countries who know how to do so successfully, and follow their lead. "Learn humility" means "stop assuming that this is America's problem to solve." It's not our business and all we're doing is fucking it up.
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  > Of course I can. Learn some humility, diplomacy, and restraint. Huh. The fact that there is a chain of command that this decision must pass sounds like the idea of restraint is not lost on these people. In fact it seems quite the opposite, that there is a directive for restraint. It's not up to the pilots and spotters, no matter how gung-ho they may be(many aren't at all, unlike what is portrayed in the article). The billions the US is pumping into their communities in the form of assistance seems like some form of diplomacy to me, or at least due diligence for the massive social disturbance. I could be wrong. You'll have to explain to the people receiving said aid that it's either misguided or not enough, though. > The military has no business in Iraq and needs to leave. Iraqis have said so countless times. We're talking about Afghanistan, not Iraq. The US involvement in Iraq was totally illegal, but it's worth noting that many Iraqis definitely wanted us there after the invasion. They certainly want us there now. > Learn diplomacy" means "use diplomats." And it also means talk to some countries who know how to do so successfully, and follow their lead. This statement sounds buried within ideology rather than facts. The US has a massive diplomat corps and engages in some form of diplomacy every day with every country on the planet, save a few. Even moreso in Afghanistan and Iraq. You'll recall that diplomacy did not work shortly after 9/11 when Afghanistan was identified as a host country to Al Queda. Again, the situation is as it is today. We cannot go back and alter the past. So what better way is there to proceed? The US spends billions on aid and reconstruction efforts in both countries, are they simply supposed to ignore threats?
saiya-jin 12y ago
nobody wants this war? are you kidding sir? there is a lot to earn on every single war, these one being no exception. All companies manufacturing weapons, ammunition, subcontractors etc. Stop wars, they are out of job. Is it utterly immoral? But yes of course. Is it clear to most people outside of US? Not much doubt there. Is this going to happen again? You bet it will. Why? Just because US can. There was not so long ago perception that US is the world police, the good guys. Well, these days, you guys are working hard to convince all the rest that China might be more suitable for this task. Is it really hard to see how much evil is US creating in our tiny world? Did it at least once to people like you occurred, that you really, REALLY cannot well justify waging war half across the world, for laughable reasons?
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  > Is it clear to most people outside of US? Not much doubt there. And yet all these operations are run from Europe. Where are the protests by Europeans?
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  Did you stop reading immediately after the word "war" or something? I'm really shocked by the level of hivemindism on HN these days. I'm all for idealism but it really needs to be tempered with reality for any real progress to be made towards a better future with less war, more equality, etc.
hereonbusiness 12y ago
The beginning of the 21st century shall always be remembered as the moment humanity became really sophisticated at killing poor people who live in mud houses from far far away.
- josefresco 12y ago
  ...poor people with incredibly wealthy friends who fund their misdeeds. So yeah, relatively speaking they (the foot soldiers) may be poor but those controlling all sides are not. And I'd say the 90's was the beginning of the "cruise missile" guided bomb era of warfare.
  - hereonbusiness 12y ago
    So you're saying we should just go and kill those incredibly wealthy friends of theirs instead of bothering with the foot soldiers?
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  Realistically, I think that will be a footnote to the explosion of computers and the Internet - and not because the "winner writes history"(which is rapidly becoming moot as time goes on) but because in the grand scheme of things it's nearly inconsequential compared to developments in doing the exact opposite of killing. Your notion also ignores the fact that the reason this exists in the first place is partially the desire to eliminate collateral damage, not perpetuate more of it.
  - hereonbusiness 12y ago
    > Realistically, I think that will be a footnote to the explosion of computers and the Internet. > Your notion also ignores the fact that the reason this exists in the first place is partially the desire to eliminate collateral damage, not perpetuate more of it. Well we'll see, human lives do seem like they're not worth much, especially those in the 3rd world, out of sight out of mind like another poster said. I mean you could probably kill a lot more of those people with the world standing idly by as long as you have some kind of justification, they can be invaded, bombed, displaced, held indefinitely and tortured with impunity, but now they are trying really hard to only kill as many of them as they really want to, are they not merciful ... But what is the end goal here, what do they hope to accomplish, when will the killing end? I think that the US government is in somewhat of a pickle, the war on terror is now being fought for more than a decade, has cost trillions of dollars and thousands of soldiers lives, and for what? There's no end in sight, no easy way out, heck we may be even worse off than before, we have an Al Qaeda offshoot building a state of their own as we speak. You can't just pull out completely and cut your losses because this might come back to haunt us all. The only thing they seem to be able to come up with right now is to further streamline killing to prolong the status quo as long as possible, and even that doesn't seem to be going well. How the hell are we going to resolve this? Or maybe I'm just crazy and this will all just blow over after a couple more years of targeted killings, all those islamists may just give up and go home to live peaceful lives, who knows.
tessierashpool 12y ago
knowaveragejoe: "the billions the US is pumping into these communities" the actual article: "$5000 and a goat"
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  What a frustratingly simplistic retort.