4 ms·

If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want

If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want to read up on gender neutral pronouns. He/She or his/hers can be used in a gender neutral manner, however traditionally the masculine form is used in English when gender neutral is intended.

MBlume 12y ago
Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach
- sgrove 12y ago
  Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
  - evincarofautumn 12y ago
    Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
    - sgrove 12y ago
      Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)
- Dewie 12y ago
  I think I've only seen "they" used as a gender-neutral pronoun once or twice, outside of contexts where the topic itself is gender neutral pronouns. So going by that experience, I don't have much faith in broad adoption if the term can't seem to penetrate usage in writing outside of contexts where people are actively discussing the term itself.
  - unhammer 12y ago
    Shakespeare good enough for you? http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h... or Jane Austen? http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html For more fun facts and rants about gender-neutral they, see: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005423.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005423.h... ----- Note: there's a strong difference between gender-neutral they when the gender is unknown, and singular they when the gender is known. Some people actually prefer being referred to with 'they/their' in sentences such as "Mary finished their ph.d. at Oxford". I doubt you'll find much historic precedence for that usage, but the use of 'their' when the gender is unknown/unspecified has a long history. Well, each to their own.
    - tekacs 12y ago
      I myself use they as a neutral pronoun, but I'd suggest that Shakespeare and Austen aren't great examples, especially the former, as the poster was looking for widespread adoption and those authors[1] both use language in ways that are very uncommon. [1]: this right here is why 'they' as neutral is problematic, as I would have been able to use 'they' unambiguously (instead of 'those authors') had 'they' not grown a singular meaning. It's the point made above about two dimensions rather than one of uncertainty.
      - unhammer 12y ago
        Maybe not the best examples, but people do tend to think of the usage as something new, while it's been around forever. I wouldn't say "they both" is very number-ambiguous, though sure you can always find ambiguous examples, but then language is full of ambiguity and humans still seem to manage fine.
- bigtunacan 12y ago
  Interesting how you focused on "he/him/his" when I said "He/She" and "his/hers", noting that either gender based term can be used in a gender neutral manner, but that "traditionally the masculine form is used". My point was to indicate that it is common enough that insult should not have been taken to the original post. I certainly never said anything about "The One Correct English Way". As for the condescension; yes that was intended. The response was overly hostile and out of line so the condescension was deserved IMHO. Don't worry yourself though Mike; I spread around the condescension equally to all genders.
  - dang 12y ago
    > I spread around the condescension equally Please don't spread any more condescension on Hacker News. Although I'm sure you don't mean to, it's one of the worst things you could do to damage this community.
- Devthrowaway80 12y ago
  Claiming that the author is sexist for using "he" in a gender neutral setting, which has been standard practice for decades, is an over-reach. Is "they" or "him/her" a better way forward? Sure. Is it standard practice? No. Can you infer anything about the author's attitudes by his use of standard English grammar? No.
okasaki 12y ago
Gender neutral pronouns can only refer to abstract persons > "The student will have to read this book carefully if he wishes to do well." - OK > "A student is expected to attend 90% of the lectures, or he will be in trouble." - WRONG, if your audience has women > "Julia thought she did well on the exam and he was right." - WRONG > "Julia thought she did well on the exam and they were right." - WRONG
kopter 12y ago
(Only on Hacker News -- a discussion on point-free style devolves into a discussion on gender-free style!)
dang 12y ago
> maybe the next language you should consider studying is English Personal swipes are not allowed in Hacker News comments, regardless of how annoying or provocative some other comment may have been. (I'm inclined to say that pronoun wars shouldn't be, either, considering the madness that this thread devolved into.)

MBlume 12y ago

Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach

sgrove 12y ago
Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
- evincarofautumn 12y ago
  Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
  - sgrove 12y ago
    Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)
Dewie 12y ago
I think I've only seen "they" used as a gender-neutral pronoun once or twice, outside of contexts where the topic itself is gender neutral pronouns. So going by that experience, I don't have much faith in broad adoption if the term can't seem to penetrate usage in writing outside of contexts where people are actively discussing the term itself.
- unhammer 12y ago
  Shakespeare good enough for you? http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h... or Jane Austen? http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html For more fun facts and rants about gender-neutral they, see: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005423.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005423.h... ----- Note: there's a strong difference between gender-neutral they when the gender is unknown, and singular they when the gender is known. Some people actually prefer being referred to with 'they/their' in sentences such as "Mary finished their ph.d. at Oxford". I doubt you'll find much historic precedence for that usage, but the use of 'their' when the gender is unknown/unspecified has a long history. Well, each to their own.
  - tekacs 12y ago
    I myself use they as a neutral pronoun, but I'd suggest that Shakespeare and Austen aren't great examples, especially the former, as the poster was looking for widespread adoption and those authors[1] both use language in ways that are very uncommon. [1]: this right here is why 'they' as neutral is problematic, as I would have been able to use 'they' unambiguously (instead of 'those authors') had 'they' not grown a singular meaning. It's the point made above about two dimensions rather than one of uncertainty.
    - unhammer 12y ago
      Maybe not the best examples, but people do tend to think of the usage as something new, while it's been around forever. I wouldn't say "they both" is very number-ambiguous, though sure you can always find ambiguous examples, but then language is full of ambiguity and humans still seem to manage fine.
bigtunacan 12y ago
Interesting how you focused on "he/him/his" when I said "He/She" and "his/hers", noting that either gender based term can be used in a gender neutral manner, but that "traditionally the masculine form is used". My point was to indicate that it is common enough that insult should not have been taken to the original post. I certainly never said anything about "The One Correct English Way". As for the condescension; yes that was intended. The response was overly hostile and out of line so the condescension was deserved IMHO. Don't worry yourself though Mike; I spread around the condescension equally to all genders.
- dang 12y ago
  > I spread around the condescension equally Please don't spread any more condescension on Hacker News. Although I'm sure you don't mean to, it's one of the worst things you could do to damage this community.
Devthrowaway80 12y ago
Claiming that the author is sexist for using "he" in a gender neutral setting, which has been standard practice for decades, is an over-reach. Is "they" or "him/her" a better way forward? Sure. Is it standard practice? No. Can you infer anything about the author's attitudes by his use of standard English grammar? No.

okasaki 12y ago

Gender neutral pronouns can only refer to abstract persons > "The student will have to read this book carefully if he wishes to do well." - OK > "A student is expected to attend 90% of the lectures, or he will be in trouble." - WRONG, if your audience has women > "Julia thought she did well on the exam and he was right." - WRONG > "Julia thought she did well on the exam and they were right." - WRONG

kopter 12y ago

(Only on Hacker News -- a discussion on point-free style devolves into a discussion on gender-free style!)

dang 12y ago

> maybe the next language you should consider studying is English Personal swipes are not allowed in Hacker News comments, regardless of how annoying or provocative some other comment may have been. (I'm inclined to say that pronoun wars shouldn't be, either, considering the madness that this thread devolved into.)