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You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in

You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Anyway, I'm well-aware of the temptation of writing point-free code. I did include the sentence "I can see the road to hell is paved with point-free style" myself, after all. I wouldn't prefer point-free style if it ends up looking indiscernible, but in this case I sort of wanted a way to express semi-declaratively "this function is the difference between these other two functions". Does the version I ended up with do that? Yes. But for all I knew there could have been a much better, more idiomatic way. But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. I'm satisfied with the version I ended up with, though I don't think it's perfect, either.

Guthur 12y ago
"Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that." What's being implied here? that because the OP is not omnipotent that there is gender conspiracy? Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific.
- lexi-lambda 12y ago
  Eh, you're right, that came off as far too aggressive—I didn't really mean it to be. Of course the OP isn't going to be omnipotent, but then why default to male? I know English doesn't have singular gender-neutral pronouns, but I think "they" is acceptable now. And no, obviously I'm not saying people in the field of CS are all misogynist bigots. I'm just saying it's really, really male-dominated, so defaulting to "he" doesn't really cause problems. I'm not trying to attack anyone (and I agree it came off that way, I'm sorry), I just get frustrated when it's a perpetual thing I run into, y'know? Eventually I can get a little terse.
  - MAGZine 12y ago
    because for many people, not even in CS, 'he' is the default pronoun. There's a trend in writing now to actually use "she," when writing about a hypothetical person who is genderless, rather than "he." But not only could this be construed as sexist (i.e. akin to reverse-racism), but randomly breaking convention can be jarring to the reader. It isn't necessarily, but can be. I'm just saying that I've read some papers by leading feminist theatre art/drama scholars, and even they use the masculine pronoun. Also, I find it annoying that while you adknowledge OP's attempt to be gender neutral, you destroy her (see what I did there?) over a single pronoun, which happens to be gendered but is used neutrally.
    - mrbrowning 12y ago
      Consider that the author spent one short paragraph to talk about the OP's choice of pronouns, while you spent an entire comment taking her to task for it; that her criticism was politely stated, while you employ rank hyperbole in describing that comment as "[destruction]"; that you're expecting someone to be polite and dispassionate who by her own admission has dealt repeatedly with the litany of disappointments and frustrations that come with being a woman in a male-dominated field, while not even meeting that standard of even-handedness in your own comment; and then maybe reconsider how you're devoting your efforts in this conversation. From here it looks like thou dost protest too much, methinks.
      - thirsteh 12y ago
        > the author spent one short paragraph to talk about the OP's choice of pronouns which was completely unnecessary and added nothing meaningful to the discussion. (In fact, it was self-contradictory given the insinuation that the OP had to be male in "I don't expect any different from this field.")
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - eximius 12y ago
- throwaway183839 12y ago
  I think it's something that's worth pointing out occasionally. Male programmers tend to assume that all other programmers are male. Even if they don't actually think that, it slips out in their language (as in this case). In this case the error is a little perplexing since the OP's name is "Lexi" which is almost never used as a male name!
  - revasm 12y ago
    Not a lie: I have never encountered the name Lexi before. I would have assumed it to be a made-up pseudonym. Or a reference to a post-modern sci-fi / futuristic book. If it's short for "Alexis," which is a claim you edited out of your comment, then I'm even more confused, as that name seems to be male preferred within the US.
    - lexi-lambda 12y ago
      This conversation got really out of hand really quickly, so I've stayed out of it, but is Alexis really male-preferred? That's an honest question; I don't know. Wolfram Alpha seems to find the opposite. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*GivenName.dflt-&a=*DPClash.GivenNameE.Alexis-_**Alexis.UnitedStates.male-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*Gi...
  - wcummings 12y ago
    This required a throwaway?
    - throwaway183839 12y ago
      No - I just use a throwaway account by default (actually, several of them on different machines) because (a) sometimes I do want to comment on something without having my name attached to it, and (b) it's too much effort to switch between accounts depending on what I want to say.
  - bigtunacan 12y ago
- codygman 12y ago
  > Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Not really, minorities have to face stuff like this on a more frequent basis. Gendered pronouns are more than incorrect and are harmful. > Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific. You can't just sweep away sexism under a rug.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    > You can't just sweep away sexism under a rug. Stereotypes are different than sexism. Some stereotypes are sexist, but assuming that someone is a man when it is likely that he/she is isn't sexist. Maybe irritating, and rash judgement - but that's stereotypes in general. Sexism is a belief that one gender is better than the other, or that some gender is bad in some way. Does assuming that someone is a male programmer make them sexist? Not really - not unless you _also_ assume other implications like "women can't program", or other such nonsense. But that's a leap to make.
    - codygman 12y ago
      > Does assuming that someone is a male programmer make them sexist? Not really - not unless you _also_ assume other implications like "women can't program", or other such nonsense. But that's a leap to make. In my experience I've found people who assume genders to have a reason for assuming. The most common reason is they don't believe women can program as well as men.
      - eximius 12y ago
        I'd argue a simpler reason is that the vast majority are male. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - As an aside, while I firmly believe that both genders have equal _potentials_, I think that due to various socioeconomic and cultural pressures, genders are _not_ equal at everything in execution, on average. It might take a while for that to happen.
      - 12y ago
peteretep 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" > everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong > ("his")? Where would you have had the commenter go to establish your gender? You haven't attached your name to the article, but even if you had, it's a name that in many countries is male anyway. Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?
- MBlume 12y ago
  > Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? Yes, of course.
- JadeNB 12y ago
  > Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? As the poster demonstrated (by using "the author" in almost all places), it is often possible to go without pronouns entirely, at the expense of some repetitiveness or awkwardness. In this case, all that would have been required would have been to change > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free. to > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make functions point free. or, if the possessive is really important, the awkward > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make the author's [or just "his or her"] functions point free. However, as I have said elsethread, I think that this was almost certainly inattentiveness rather than any attempt to perpetuate gender biases.
  - codygman 12y ago
    I personally would have gone with: > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make their functions point free.
    - JadeNB 12y ago
      Then your answer to peteretep's question (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477) "Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?" is 'yes', which is fine. I agreed with what I took (emphasis: my interpretation, not endorsed by peteretep) to be the subtext of that question, namely that the use of 'their' in that context is undesireable, and argued that it was not the only alternative to a gendered pronoun.
bigtunacan 12y ago
If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want to read up on gender neutral pronouns. He/She or his/hers can be used in a gender neutral manner, however traditionally the masculine form is used in English when gender neutral is intended.
- MBlume 12y ago
  Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach
  - sgrove 12y ago
    Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
    - evincarofautumn 12y ago
      Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
      - sgrove 12y ago
        Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)
baldfat 12y ago
Maybe the poster isn't even a primary English speaker and their language uses masculine as the default. BUT sorry that most people when they see anything aggressive from a female they get all worked up. It is a strange phenomenon when most never sees any bias in themselves because they like their mom and sister and they only dislike that woman and that other one oh and maybe the other one. It is so strange.
JadeNB 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? As you notice, the poster to whom you are replying clearly goes to a lot of effort to say "the author" repeatedly, rather than 'he' or 'she'. I think that it's fair to assume that one slip-up after such work is a result of innocent inattention rather than a perpetuation of gender biases.
- calibraxis 12y ago
  This whole ridiculous subthread is about programmers aggressively refusing to fix bugs. (Misgendering.)
theseoafs 12y ago
> But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. What was there to improve? It's totally sensible and readable, and you even mention that you had people on IRC tell you the function was fine as it is.
DanBC 12y ago
> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Wow, you got some really hostile reactions for your politely worded comment. Some of those responses belong on @shithnsays

Guthur 12y ago

"Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that." What's being implied here? that because the OP is not omnipotent that there is gender conspiracy? Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific.

lexi-lambda 12y ago
Eh, you're right, that came off as far too aggressive—I didn't really mean it to be. Of course the OP isn't going to be omnipotent, but then why default to male? I know English doesn't have singular gender-neutral pronouns, but I think "they" is acceptable now. And no, obviously I'm not saying people in the field of CS are all misogynist bigots. I'm just saying it's really, really male-dominated, so defaulting to "he" doesn't really cause problems. I'm not trying to attack anyone (and I agree it came off that way, I'm sorry), I just get frustrated when it's a perpetual thing I run into, y'know? Eventually I can get a little terse.
- MAGZine 12y ago
  because for many people, not even in CS, 'he' is the default pronoun. There's a trend in writing now to actually use "she," when writing about a hypothetical person who is genderless, rather than "he." But not only could this be construed as sexist (i.e. akin to reverse-racism), but randomly breaking convention can be jarring to the reader. It isn't necessarily, but can be. I'm just saying that I've read some papers by leading feminist theatre art/drama scholars, and even they use the masculine pronoun. Also, I find it annoying that while you adknowledge OP's attempt to be gender neutral, you destroy her (see what I did there?) over a single pronoun, which happens to be gendered but is used neutrally.
  - mrbrowning 12y ago
    Consider that the author spent one short paragraph to talk about the OP's choice of pronouns, while you spent an entire comment taking her to task for it; that her criticism was politely stated, while you employ rank hyperbole in describing that comment as "[destruction]"; that you're expecting someone to be polite and dispassionate who by her own admission has dealt repeatedly with the litany of disappointments and frustrations that come with being a woman in a male-dominated field, while not even meeting that standard of even-handedness in your own comment; and then maybe reconsider how you're devoting your efforts in this conversation. From here it looks like thou dost protest too much, methinks.
    - thirsteh 12y ago
      > the author spent one short paragraph to talk about the OP's choice of pronouns which was completely unnecessary and added nothing meaningful to the discussion. (In fact, it was self-contradictory given the insinuation that the OP had to be male in "I don't expect any different from this field.")
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - eximius 12y ago
throwaway183839 12y ago
I think it's something that's worth pointing out occasionally. Male programmers tend to assume that all other programmers are male. Even if they don't actually think that, it slips out in their language (as in this case). In this case the error is a little perplexing since the OP's name is "Lexi" which is almost never used as a male name!
- revasm 12y ago
  Not a lie: I have never encountered the name Lexi before. I would have assumed it to be a made-up pseudonym. Or a reference to a post-modern sci-fi / futuristic book. If it's short for "Alexis," which is a claim you edited out of your comment, then I'm even more confused, as that name seems to be male preferred within the US.
  - lexi-lambda 12y ago
    This conversation got really out of hand really quickly, so I've stayed out of it, but is Alexis really male-preferred? That's an honest question; I don't know. Wolfram Alpha seems to find the opposite. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*GivenName.dflt-&a=*DPClash.GivenNameE.Alexis-_**Alexis.UnitedStates.male-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Alexis&a=*C.Alexis-_*Gi...
- wcummings 12y ago
  This required a throwaway?
  - throwaway183839 12y ago
    No - I just use a throwaway account by default (actually, several of them on different machines) because (a) sometimes I do want to comment on something without having my name attached to it, and (b) it's too much effort to switch between accounts depending on what I want to say.
- bigtunacan 12y ago
codygman 12y ago
> Broadly making assumptions about everyone within a particular field is as bad if not worse than someone using an incorrect pronoun. Not really, minorities have to face stuff like this on a more frequent basis. Gendered pronouns are more than incorrect and are harmful. > Just as an aside; everyone has to deal with imbeciles in this field whether it be the pointy haired boss or just gross incompetence, it's not gender specific. You can't just sweep away sexism under a rug.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > You can't just sweep away sexism under a rug. Stereotypes are different than sexism. Some stereotypes are sexist, but assuming that someone is a man when it is likely that he/she is isn't sexist. Maybe irritating, and rash judgement - but that's stereotypes in general. Sexism is a belief that one gender is better than the other, or that some gender is bad in some way. Does assuming that someone is a male programmer make them sexist? Not really - not unless you _also_ assume other implications like "women can't program", or other such nonsense. But that's a leap to make.
  - codygman 12y ago
    > Does assuming that someone is a male programmer make them sexist? Not really - not unless you _also_ assume other implications like "women can't program", or other such nonsense. But that's a leap to make. In my experience I've found people who assume genders to have a reason for assuming. The most common reason is they don't believe women can program as well as men.
    - eximius 12y ago
      I'd argue a simpler reason is that the vast majority are male. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - As an aside, while I firmly believe that both genders have equal _potentials_, I think that due to various socioeconomic and cultural pressures, genders are _not_ equal at everything in execution, on average. It might take a while for that to happen.
    - 12y ago

peteretep 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" > everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong > ("his")? Where would you have had the commenter go to establish your gender? You haven't attached your name to the article, but even if you had, it's a name that in many countries is male anyway. Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?

MBlume 12y ago
> Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? Yes, of course.
JadeNB 12y ago
> Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'? As the poster demonstrated (by using "the author" in almost all places), it is often possible to go without pronouns entirely, at the expense of some repetitiveness or awkwardness. In this case, all that would have been required would have been to change > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make his functions point-free. to > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make functions point free. or, if the possessive is really important, the awkward > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make the author's [or just "his or her"] functions point free. However, as I have said elsethread, I think that this was almost certainly inattentiveness rather than any attempt to perpetuate gender biases.
- codygman 12y ago
  I personally would have gone with: > The author spends a lot of effort trying to make their functions point free.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    Then your answer to peteretep's question (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9188477) "Would you have rather the commenter have said 'their'?" is 'yes', which is fine. I agreed with what I took (emphasis: my interpretation, not endorsed by peteretep) to be the subtext of that question, namely that the use of 'their' in that context is undesireable, and argued that it was not the only alternative to a gendered pronoun.

bigtunacan 12y ago

If your first focus is on the usage of "his" in the response then maybe the next language you should consider studying is English. For starters you might want to read up on gender neutral pronouns. He/She or his/hers can be used in a gender neutral manner, however traditionally the masculine form is used in English when gender neutral is intended.

MBlume 12y ago
Wow, that's some extraordinary condescension. They/them/their has been seeing broad adoption as a, y'know, actually gender-neutral pronoun, and it should be encouraged. I know some people prefer he/him/his but a) many people think that reeks of implicit sexism b) even ignoring a), elevating that to The One Correct English Way is ridiculous overreach
- sgrove 12y ago
  Meh, I like 'hen'[0] a lot, wouldn't mind seeing a concerted effort to introduce it in English as well. I doubt it would go over well in the states, however. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29
  - evincarofautumn 12y ago
    Unfortunately, pronouns are a closed class[1] in English; the possibility of getting people to adopt a new one is vanishingly unlikely. Fortunately, we already have “they”, which has been used as a gender-neutral pronoun in the singular for at least half a millennium. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_of_speech#Open_and_closed...
    - sgrove 12y ago
      Interesting, hadn't heard about closed/open classes in speech. I agree that "they" serves the purpose well, but it's nice to see an explicit, consciousness-raising fix (though it's the ultimate bikeshed politically, everyone feels they're qualified to comment - even me!)

baldfat 12y ago

Maybe the poster isn't even a primary English speaker and their language uses masculine as the default. BUT sorry that most people when they see anything aggressive from a female they get all worked up. It is a strange phenomenon when most never sees any bias in themselves because they like their mom and sister and they only dislike that woman and that other one oh and maybe the other one. It is so strange.

JadeNB 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? As you notice, the poster to whom you are replying clearly goes to a lot of effort to say "the author" repeatedly, rather than 'he' or 'she'. I think that it's fair to assume that one slip-up after such work is a result of innocent inattention rather than a perpetuation of gender biases.

calibraxis 12y ago
This whole ridiculous subthread is about programmers aggressively refusing to fix bugs. (Misgendering.)

theseoafs 12y ago

> But yes, that was both a quest to improve that code and a mere learning exercise. What was there to improve? It's totally sensible and readable, and you even mention that you had people on IRC tell you the function was fine as it is.

DanBC 12y ago

> You're going to spend all that work using "the author" everywhere and still manage to get my gender wrong ("his")? Okay. I don't really expect any different in this field, but just noting that. Wow, you got some really hostile reactions for your politely worded comment. Some of those responses belong on @shithnsays