4 ms·

Yet many people use their MacBooks as a browser on steroids. Those people are the target audience of the Chromebook.

by moskie 12y ago

digi_owl 12y ago
The whole ChromeOS project seems to have gotten underway because someone at Google observed how much of the computing time was spent inside the web browser. the problem with ChromeOS, imo, is how limited it becomes once you pull out the net connection. Never mind the whole lockdown unless you flip that "developer" switch.
- moskie 12y ago
  But again, that doesn't really matter to people who are using their laptops as a browser on steroids. Whether you're using a Macbook or a Chromebook, you're SOL in either case if you mostly do your work in a browser.
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    True, but i was not thinking just about work. I keep seeing them pitched as simple devices for home "computing".
    - vertex-four 12y ago
      The thing is, home computing is, for the vast majority of people, accessing email, Facebook, and various web information sources 90% of the time. If the Internet's not working, for the most part, they wouldn't be able to do whatever they were doing in the first place, ChromeOS or not. Using office-type apps at home is not something that's done every day any more - my family do it incredibly rarely on their Windows desktop.
- Crito 12y ago
  > "Never mind the whole lockdown unless you flip that "developer" switch." Speaking of which, it would be nice if that were a physical switch on Pixels. With the original Pixel at least, there is an issue that if your battery runs completely dead, the bit that tells the computer it should be in developer mode is unset. When that happens, if you have linux installed on it, you are hosed. Everything on the drive becomes inaccessible, and the only thing you can do is reflash ChromeOS. If I am wrong about that, somebody please tell me. It is making me paranoid as hell about leaving it unplugged.
  - 32ppki 12y ago
    https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-for-chrome-os-devices/workaround-for-battery-discharge-in-dev-mode https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-f...
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      Well snap. No Chromebook for me any time soon...
    - Crito 12y ago
      Thank you! Hopefully I never have to do this, but I feel much better knowing that it is possible.
  - pgeorgi 12y ago
    The issue is fixed on Pixel 2: "And yes the issue with dev/legacy enable state being lost when the battery drains has been fixed as the state is now saved in the TPM instead of CMOS" (comment to https://plus.google.com/+OlofJohansson/posts/1yopVMjEhjK https://plus.google.com/+OlofJohansson/posts/1yopVMjEhjK)
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      A TPM? Not sure i like the sound of that. Who holds the final keys? Also, what happened to giving the CMOS a backup battery?
      - pgeorgi 12y ago
        The backup battery is gone because Intel datasheets advised against it for years, and they got more insistent over time. It's surprising enough that they still didn't manage to kill of that part of the PC80 architecture (RTC clock and associated memory). They certainly try for years by now. As for the TPM, Chromebooks come with them for a long time now. They're cleared when entering or leaving developer mode. The main difference is that after clearing, the devmode mechanism also records the state there (instead of in CMOS). If you're concerned about "final keys", read the spec (eg. http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_specification http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_spec..., Part 1, Section 9.5). The only key that is never deleted is the "Endorsement Key". That one is similarly annoying as the Pentium III serial number (ie. it allows secure identification of the TPM if you let software send requests to the TPM).
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > The whole ChromeOS project seems to have gotten underway because someone at Google observed how much of the computing time was spent inside the web browser. Well, I think there is something in that direction, but quite a lot in the direction of "the whole Chrome project at Google -- including ChromeOS -- was started because someone at Google realized that Google would have more reach if people spent more time in the browser and had less reason to use non-web software, so they set out to address the issues that make out-of-browser software necessary for what users want to do with computers."
- chestnut-tree 12y ago
  "the problem with ChromeOS, imo, is how limited it becomes once you pull out the net connection" The other problem with ChromesOS is that it's a gigantic privacy sinkhole. Everything you do in the OS is tracked and recorded by Google. Even printing to your desktop printer. None of this tracking is anonymous either since you must sign in with your Google account to properly use ChromeOS. (Just a reminder that a Google account equals your name, gender, email, date-of-birth, location and mobile phone number). Google fail to state in their lengthy privacy policy how long they keep your data (presumably forever) or whether your activity is disassociated from your identity when viewed by Google. In my view, this is simply unacceptable when you consider the gargantuan volumes of private date collected and the unprecedented degree of tracking. The reaction on this site to an entire OS that tracks you by default has mostly been: "Yeah, you're being tracked. So what? Get over it." Presumably everyone happy to recommend ChromeOS would be equally happy to switch on their Mac/Windows/Ubuntu machine and have it track everything they do, have that information sent back to the OS manufacturer, and for none of that data to be anonymous?
  - rational-future 12y ago
    You can create a fake account.
    - nfoz 12y ago
      Besides the terms of service violation, if you provide an invalid phone number you're likely to get locked out of something and not able to verify your identity to get back in.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      Which someone at Google can likely tie to your real one with zero effort, especially if you've got an Android phone or a Nest.
    - nfoz 12y ago
      In order to purchase the Pixel, I had to create a Google Wallet account. This needed all my contact info. Once I get the device I will use a different fake google account, but they can suspect there's a link between the purchasing account and the account that uses the machine.
- Dewie 12y ago
  First I saw mention of it, it seemed that they wanted to make a minimal OS that was very quick to boot - minimal in part because it was only the browser, or whatever. Then soon after that SSDs happened and I stopped caring about boot times.
josefresco 12y ago
The "audience" or market for the Pixel are Googlers - hardly folks looking for a browser on steroids. Although that being said, I'm not sure "browser on steroids" is exactly a knock given what you can accomplish these days.

Yet many people use their MacBooks as a browser on steroids. Those people are the target audience of the Chromebook.

by moskie 12y ago

Yet many people use their MacBooks as a browser on steroids. Those people are the target audience of the Chromebook.

The whole ChromeOS project seems to have gotten underway because someone at Google observed how much of the computing time was spent inside the web browser. the problem with ChromeOS, imo, is how limited it becomes once you pull out the net connection. Never mind the whole lockdown unless you flip that "developer" switch.

moskie 12y ago
But again, that doesn't really matter to people who are using their laptops as a browser on steroids. Whether you're using a Macbook or a Chromebook, you're SOL in either case if you mostly do your work in a browser.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  True, but i was not thinking just about work. I keep seeing them pitched as simple devices for home "computing".
  - vertex-four 12y ago
    The thing is, home computing is, for the vast majority of people, accessing email, Facebook, and various web information sources 90% of the time. If the Internet's not working, for the most part, they wouldn't be able to do whatever they were doing in the first place, ChromeOS or not. Using office-type apps at home is not something that's done every day any more - my family do it incredibly rarely on their Windows desktop.
Crito 12y ago
> "Never mind the whole lockdown unless you flip that "developer" switch." Speaking of which, it would be nice if that were a physical switch on Pixels. With the original Pixel at least, there is an issue that if your battery runs completely dead, the bit that tells the computer it should be in developer mode is unset. When that happens, if you have linux installed on it, you are hosed. Everything on the drive becomes inaccessible, and the only thing you can do is reflash ChromeOS. If I am wrong about that, somebody please tell me. It is making me paranoid as hell about leaving it unplugged.
- 32ppki 12y ago
  https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-for-chrome-os-devices/workaround-for-battery-discharge-in-dev-mode https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information-f...
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    Well snap. No Chromebook for me any time soon...
  - Crito 12y ago
    Thank you! Hopefully I never have to do this, but I feel much better knowing that it is possible.
- pgeorgi 12y ago
  The issue is fixed on Pixel 2: "And yes the issue with dev/legacy enable state being lost when the battery drains has been fixed as the state is now saved in the TPM instead of CMOS" (comment to https://plus.google.com/+OlofJohansson/posts/1yopVMjEhjK https://plus.google.com/+OlofJohansson/posts/1yopVMjEhjK)
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    A TPM? Not sure i like the sound of that. Who holds the final keys? Also, what happened to giving the CMOS a backup battery?
    - pgeorgi 12y ago
      The backup battery is gone because Intel datasheets advised against it for years, and they got more insistent over time. It's surprising enough that they still didn't manage to kill of that part of the PC80 architecture (RTC clock and associated memory). They certainly try for years by now. As for the TPM, Chromebooks come with them for a long time now. They're cleared when entering or leaving developer mode. The main difference is that after clearing, the devmode mechanism also records the state there (instead of in CMOS). If you're concerned about "final keys", read the spec (eg. http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_specification http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_spec..., Part 1, Section 9.5). The only key that is never deleted is the "Endorsement Key". That one is similarly annoying as the Pentium III serial number (ie. it allows secure identification of the TPM if you let software send requests to the TPM).
dragonwriter 12y ago
> The whole ChromeOS project seems to have gotten underway because someone at Google observed how much of the computing time was spent inside the web browser. Well, I think there is something in that direction, but quite a lot in the direction of "the whole Chrome project at Google -- including ChromeOS -- was started because someone at Google realized that Google would have more reach if people spent more time in the browser and had less reason to use non-web software, so they set out to address the issues that make out-of-browser software necessary for what users want to do with computers."
chestnut-tree 12y ago
"the problem with ChromeOS, imo, is how limited it becomes once you pull out the net connection" The other problem with ChromesOS is that it's a gigantic privacy sinkhole. Everything you do in the OS is tracked and recorded by Google. Even printing to your desktop printer. None of this tracking is anonymous either since you must sign in with your Google account to properly use ChromeOS. (Just a reminder that a Google account equals your name, gender, email, date-of-birth, location and mobile phone number). Google fail to state in their lengthy privacy policy how long they keep your data (presumably forever) or whether your activity is disassociated from your identity when viewed by Google. In my view, this is simply unacceptable when you consider the gargantuan volumes of private date collected and the unprecedented degree of tracking. The reaction on this site to an entire OS that tracks you by default has mostly been: "Yeah, you're being tracked. So what? Get over it." Presumably everyone happy to recommend ChromeOS would be equally happy to switch on their Mac/Windows/Ubuntu machine and have it track everything they do, have that information sent back to the OS manufacturer, and for none of that data to be anonymous?
- rational-future 12y ago
  You can create a fake account.
  - nfoz 12y ago
    Besides the terms of service violation, if you provide an invalid phone number you're likely to get locked out of something and not able to verify your identity to get back in.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    Which someone at Google can likely tie to your real one with zero effort, especially if you've got an Android phone or a Nest.
  - nfoz 12y ago
    In order to purchase the Pixel, I had to create a Google Wallet account. This needed all my contact info. Once I get the device I will use a different fake google account, but they can suspect there's a link between the purchasing account and the account that uses the machine.
Dewie 12y ago
First I saw mention of it, it seemed that they wanted to make a minimal OS that was very quick to boot - minimal in part because it was only the browser, or whatever. Then soon after that SSDs happened and I stopped caring about boot times.

josefresco 12y ago

The "audience" or market for the Pixel are Googlers - hardly folks looking for a browser on steroids. Although that being said, I'm not sure "browser on steroids" is exactly a knock given what you can accomplish these days.