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Water Fluoridation Linked to Higher ADHD Rates
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- JoeAltmaier 12y agoOk, the one about falling out of fishing boats, and the marriage rate in Kentucky may be on to something...
- nickhalfasleep 12y agoYou could also say that more civilized locations have better doctors capable of diagnosing ADHD.
- DennisP 12y agoPerhaps. But given that we have several candidate mechanisms, and experiments showing that fluoride really does cause hyperactivity in rats, I wouldn't write this off too quickly.
- undersuit 12y agoI would. You're now in the 1st page result in google for: "fluoride really does cause hyperactivity in rats."
- DennisP 12y agoWell given that I got that from the Newsweek article we're discussing, and they provided their source, that's just silly on Google's part.
- johndevor 12y agoLink?
- DennisP 12y agoIt's right there in the Newsweek article, which links to a study at PubMed.
- hijinks 12y agothat is way too logical of a thought
- falcolas 12y agoCorrelation link only at this point. From the abstract: > Overall state water fluoridation prevalence (not distinguishing between fluoridation types) was also significantly positively correlated with state prevalence of ADHD for all but one year examined. [...] The relationship between fluoride exposure and ADHD warrants future study. Still, it will be interesting to see what more comes out of this.
- NWDrew72 12y agoFor Newsweek, what comes out of it is clicks, obviously.
- rcthompson 12y agoAfter reading the title and the paper's abstract, this seems to me like just one more instance of the many, many statistics that are strongly correlated with overall economic development of a society, and hence strongly correlated with each other without any causal link. In this case, the relevant factors would be "water fluoridation prevalence" and "capacity of doctors to diagnose ADHD", which are both almost certainly correlated with the overall economic status of a society (not of individuals).
- elif 12y agoIt is naive postulation to dismiss the paper for not addressing a variable, when you have not even read the paper to know whether they addressed the variable. Further, your cursory read of the abstract somehow missed the clause "after controlling for socioeconomic status"
- michael_h 12y agoI think the 'controlling for socioeconomic status" was just between the states, not an all encompassing control of economic status. Two states with a similar rise in economic activity and ADHD wouldn't fail afoul of the control. Maybe. This article might hold up, but my past experience with statistics in medical papers does not give me great hope. For a while, my job was to review the math in interesting papers (well, interesting to who ever flagged it) from medical journals. In the three years that I did this, I encountered exactly zero that didn't commit some grave statistical sin.
- elif 12y agoIt would be a statistical sin to determine that after seeing N papers with an error, that the N+1th would certainly have an error. Extrapolating the specific error without even seeing the paper is closer to rhetoric than science.
- michael_h 12y agoOf course you're right, which is exactly why I didn't write that. Again: the paper might be correct, but past experience has taught me to be skeptical.
- Argorak 12y agoIt's been a while since I read up on the subject for personal reasons, but wasn't one of the problems with ADHD for a long time that getting accurate numbers was hard because of frequent misdiagnosis (actually just diagnosing a depression instead). Especially, because the symptoms were still considered debatable at that time? So maybe, diagnosis shifted dramatically during that time as well?
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- deeviant 12y agoI'm surprised the authors of the study didn't check proximity to cell towers/power lines or some such thing.
- fredfoobar42 12y agoAnd this is why I only drink rain water and pure grain alcohol... to ensure the purity of my precious bodily fluids...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- fredfoobar42 12y agoNo Dr. Strangelove fans on HN?
- ericfrederich 12y agoHearsay/conspiracy theory... but I heard that fluoride doesn't help your teeth and that a general increase in hygiene occurred the same time that fluoride. I also heard that it is a byproduct of processing aluminium and they coaxed the government to put it into water rather than disposing of it responsibly.
- cyorir 12y agoPure bullshit. Fluoride (F-) is a weak base. Dental plaque produces acid (H+) which is one cause of tooth decay. F- + H+ <-> HF. The Fluoride neutralizes some of the acid to reduce tooth decay.
- im3w1l 12y agoThat's not the main way it protects the teeth. If you just wanted to neutralize the acids, you could rinse/drink with a buffer such as milk. Flouride works by integrating with your teeth. It forms a mineral that it is more resistant to acid attack than the mineral teeth are made of naturally.
- scubadude 12y agoYes, the biggest benefit is when the tooth is forming. It's like boro-silicate glass (pyrex) or steel; some atoms in the crystalline structure of the base material are replaced with others, which improves the overall strength of the result. So, like boron improves glass and carbon improves iron (to make steel) then fluoride improves the tooth structure.
- shoyer 12y agoHere's the original journal article (which is open access): http://www.ehjournal.net/content/pdf/s12940-015-0003-1.pdf http://www.ehjournal.net/content/pdf/s12940-015-0003-1.pdf
- bicknergseng 12y agoUgh. I hate to think of all of the "I told you so's" from the misguided people in Portland who continually vote against fluoridating the water with no actual scientific basis for doing so.
- Alex3917 12y agoSo you're saying that science says we should treat all drugs as being safe unless proven to be harmful?
- HelloMcFly 12y agoOr think more broadly. Fluoridation of water carries a massive public health benefit, particularly to poorer families. Given the frequency of exposure across locations and generations, what negative effect it has appears to be extraordinarily very mild at best, while the benefit it provides is significant.
- maxmcd 12y agoWhoops. I guess I'm uninformed on this one, but I thought the whole "Flouridation is bad" thing had some basis in truth? There have been a few other articles about it on HN. Any chance I can get a more elaborate correction?
- NWDrew72 12y agoHere's some decent background: http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/the-sanest-arguments-against-fluoride/Content?oid=9212701 http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/the-sanest-arguments...
- konstruktor 12y agoI don't think the article you are linking is a good source. The first paragraphs are full of ad hominem attacks.
- NWDrew72 12y ago
- parfe 12y agoI think science articles should be banned from HN. The userbase is clearly not educated well enough to deal with the issues. It only produces comments from armchair scientists conjuring up whatever pet theory they can explain away the results with. Comments like the classic freshman stats quote "correlation does not equal causation", or the standard response starting with "Judging from the abstract", or the always informative "I didn't read the paper, but what if they forgot to control for X?" The only topic that gets worse comments than science on HN is gender issues. Edit: and killed by mods. From +25 at the top to the bottom
- JoeAltmaier 12y agoA healthy dose of skepticism is the reason I DO read Hacker News. There's no limit to the studies trumpeted in the news with inaccurate titles/conclusions. HN calls them out. Notwithstanding posts from folks with fashionably cynical attitudes.
- thomasatethose 12y agoI think so too. I'm not as smart as you guys,community college. I usually lurk and look forward to spin deconstruction here. its one of the reasons I love reading comments here
- desireco42 12y agoWhile I enjoy reading them :), I would tend to agree with you. As well as international politics, for example Ukraine and similar.
- angersock 12y agoThe only topic that gets worse comments than science on HN is gender issues. I think you're unfair there. If you want to see a diversity of opinions, that's exactly what we have--the fact that you disagree with one side or the other is quite your own problem.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- CamperBob2 12y agoYeah, in the same sense that Satoshi Nakamoto's name correlates strongly with that of a randomly-chosen 64-year-old engineer trying to enjoy a modest, quiet retirement in the Bay Area. The "truthiness" factor of anything published in Newsweek lies somewhere between Mother Goose and the Brothers Grimm.
- ajarmst 12y agoFor some values of "ADHD", whose existence, diagnostic criteria, prevalence and proper management are still wildly controversial.
- Argorak 12y agoThe existence is generally accepted, it's included in any larger medical catalog[1], there are standard tests (UTAH test), there's a wide array of literature, but management seems to be a problem. [1]: it's classified with critieria since ICD-9, which was defined in 1978.
- fl0wenol 12y agoThe most interesting tidbit in the article was this: About 90 percent of the fluoride that is added to the water takes the form not of pharmaceutical grade sodium fluoride but ... fluorosilicic acid ... This material is a byproduct of phosphate fertilizer manufacturing ... several studies have suggested that this form of fluoride can leach lead from pipes. ...other work shows that children in fluoridated areas have elevated blood lead levels, and fluoride may also increase the absorption of lead into the body... Lead itself is a potent neurotoxin and has been shown to play a role in ADHD. What is the likelihood that in areas with lower spending on municipal water that lead pipes are still used and they use the cheapest for of fluoridation available? This freaks me out a little.
- kevin_thibedeau 12y agoThe concern over lead in the water system is largely focused on lead-based solder in copper pipes. That is restricted largely to postwar homes up until the emergence of PVC and PEX plumbing in the 80's.
- fulafel 12y agoPlastic pipes can put endocrine disruptors like BPA/BPS and other nasties in the water. It's pretty common for new piping to leave noticable odor/taste for a while. For "other nasties" see http://grist.org/living/is-it-safe-to-drink-water-out-of-plastic-pipes/ http://grist.org/living/is-it-safe-to-drink-water-out-of-pla... "Some of the latest research coming out of the NSF project tested several brands of PEX tubing for chemical leaching – and found it."
- thomasatethose 12y agowasn't some other article on hn also taking about glycophosphates? being linked to adhd. the compounds in this article sound similar