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Google balloons, “cell towers in the sky,” can serve 4G to a whole state
- matt4077 12y agoI wonder (a) how many simultaneous connection the balloon can sustain and (b) how they're storing power.
- digikata 12y agoYup, it's easy to reach a large area, but it's hard to do that and service a high density of customers/connections at the same time...
- superuser2 12y agoTrue, but the interesting use case is probably low population density areas where building towers is not practical. In that situation, you probably wouldn't need many concurrent connections.
- toomuchtodo 12y agoOr use high bandwidth spot beams similar to satellites as backhaul for ground nodes.
- teraflop 12y agoI don't think energy storage is that big of a deal. Assuming you need only need to store one night's worth of energy, the weight requirements would be about 85 grams/watt for lead-acid batteries, or 25 grams/watt for lithium-ion. For comparison, commodity solar panels are already about 70 g/W.
- seanflyon 12y agoI think you mean 25 grams/Watt-hour and keep in mind that you need ~12 hours of energy storage.
- teraflop 12y agoNo, I meant grams/watt, but I glossed over how I derived those numbers. My back-of-the-envelope assumption was that you get 4 effective hours of daylight per 24 hours. Which means that for every 1W of power generation at peak, you get 1/6W of average power consumption, which translates to 3.33Wh of storage to keep things running overnight. (For a land-based installation you would probably want a multiple-day power reserve to handle cloudy days, but I'm assuming that's not an issue for a stratospheric balloon.)
- seanflyon 12y agoSo you mean 25 grams of battery per watt of solar panels?
- bduerst 12y agoWhat about using microwaves to transfer energy or charge the balloons?
- minthd 12y agoI think the maximum with lte-advanced and 5 carriers is around a million simultaneous connections.
- amyjess 12y ago...and this network of cell towers in the sky will be dubbed "Skynet".
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- vmarsy 12y agoGoogle balloons, “cell towers in the sky,” can serve 4G to a state the size of Rhode Island would be more accurate. To have a minimum coverage, you would need 140 of them to cover Texas, ~2,000 to cover the USA, ~6,000 to cover Africa (each balloon covers ~5,000km²)
- higherpurpose 12y agoSo covering the whole of US could cost them somewhere around ~$1 billion?
- mvid 12y agoTexas has a lot of uninhabited land, as does the USA and Africa. Is that being accounted for?
- vmarsy 12y agoDefinitely not, it's just an estimation of what you would need to have a 4G coverage everywhere. Areas with a very low population density are not completely uninhabited, there's at least a few persons. But yeah in a big national park or in the middle of a big lake you probably don't need 4G as much
- notatoad 12y agoballoons are not stationary. To cover inhabited areas, you also have to cover the uninhabited areas or else you're only going to have service for as long as it takes the balloon to drift overhead.
- Rainymood 12y agoThis has always been an idea/fantasy of mine. This just shows how utterly worthless an (very valuable) idea is without execution behind it. I hope that access to the web will become available for everyone as soon as possible.
- danellis 12y agoIt's either worthless or very valuable. It can't be both.
- malkia 12y agoWhat if the balloon "pops"? Falling down might still be a risk if there is heavily populated area...
- superuser2 12y agoWeather balloons like this have existed for a long time and don't seem to be an issue. Would still be interested in knowing the failure mode, though.
- josefresco 12y agoIn the event of an unexpected landing, every Loon balloon is equipped with a parachute to slow its descent http://www.google.com/loon/faq/ http://www.google.com/loon/faq/
- malkia 12y agoThanks!
- ajcarpy2005 12y agoThey should add a secondary inflatable cushion like the Mars rover had
- yohui 12y agoTheir FAQ also links to a video demonstrating the parachute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5AUHw8pRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5AUHw8pRk Project Loon also has a "blooper reel" showing a... somewhat different parachute test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW5PS7lRXwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW5PS7lRXwI
- jessriedel 12y agoCan someone confirm my guess that this is only useful in very low density regions? My impression is that cell phone data rates are limited more by how dense you need to make the cells to cover the number of users in the area (so NYC has microcells everywhere) rather than the area over which some coverage is possible for a single user.
- foobarqux 12y agoYou can use directional antennas, beamforming and other techniques to achieve sectorization.
- ithinkso 12y agoBut lte's base stations has actually very limited capacity, thats why in cities there are a lot of micro cells for capacity and much less 'full range' cells for coverage.
- foobarqux 12y agoYou can put multiple base stations on the balloon but I'm not sure what the capacity constraints are so I don't know if that would be a reasonable solution.
- digikata 12y agoYes, but then you also need to stabilize the antenna platform, either physically, or electronically or both. All that increases the cost vs a terrestrial tower where the stabilization requirements will be lower. Not saying it would be impossible, it would be a fun and interesting problem to work on, but it would be interesting because it seems like there's a nice solution in there at the intersection of all those problems...
- foobarqux 12y agoIt would be pretty trivial to add electronic beamsteering but it's not clear it is even necessary: It should be okay if the cells move a little bit.
- mrinterweb 12y agoConsidering "wind speeds as high as 291 km/h" I would think that one of the greatest challenges of the Google Loon project is making sure there is always a balloon above a targeted coverage area. I would wager that unless there are an unbelievable number of balloons deployed, the coverage would be intermittent.
- josefresco 12y agoConfusing because in their FAQ they state the following: "We are flying in the stratosphere well above commercial air traffic and weather events, at around 18 - 27 km or 60,000 - 90,000 feet. " I wonder if the "around the world" flight was done under different conditions?
- mrinterweb 12y agoWind speeds in the upper atmosphere can be very fast. These balloons will not be stationary. Based on my limited knowledge of the project, the only way they could have consistent coverage would be to have evenly spaced balloons around the Earth. That assumes that wind currents would cause the balloons to travel around the Earth in a dependable pattern. Considering the circumference of the Earth 40,008km and 80km coverage diameter, 40008 / 80 = 500 balloons would be required at minimum if all the balloons traveled at the same speed and in a dependable pattern. I would imagine the wind currents the balloons would travel on would be greater than the Earth's circumference, so more than 500 balloons would be required. Also, I doubt the balloons could maintain a perfect 80km spacing. I can think of other factors that would make dependable coverage difficult.
- zw123456 12y agoI think the last time that the Loon project item was posted here a lot of the same comments were made. I think it was verified that they are flying at the 60kft - 90kft range where the winds are typically mild and in the 20mph range. I think one problem I see with it is that ordinary smart phones won't work because they transmit at around 100mw and they won't reach that altitude, you will need an earth station that is capable of at least a couple of watts and presumably then it would act as perhaps a wifi hot spot to serve some remote area. I think in that scenario, then it makes sense as a way to serve remote sparse areas. You are simply not going to be able to get the capacity at that distance to serve downtown San Fran. Also, the issue of backhaul is a question mark in my mind. There is no Google fiber up there, so they will need probably some sort of Microwave link back to earth to connect to the internet. That can be problematic, those types of links are typically very directional so you might have to have steerable antenna's at least on the earth end, which is pretty expensive to do. So I am not sure how they plan on dealing with that part.
- dubcanada 12y agoCell phones can transmit up to 50 miles depending on what it uses, CDMA is max at around 38 miles? That seems more then enough to reach 60kft - 90kft
- zw123456 12y agohmmm, not with 100mw, in the old days of CMDA perhaps if the phone had 600mw which some did back then. But Loon is using LTE as I understand it, and I think it said they are using unlicensed spectrum, which, although I have not seen it spelled out, I am guessing in the 5.8Ghz band but even at 2.4Ghz, you are not going 50 miles on 100mw especially not since LTE is not CMDA, in the downlink LTE is OFDMA and in the uplink SC-FDMA, both of which have a much larger Peak to average ratio than spread spectrum so unless you are using an extremely narrow beam antenna (hard to aim while moving), that signal will probably be below the receiver sensitivity).
- hengheng 12y agoI could imagine more TX power on the balloon (nobody's in the way so it shouldn't do damage), as well as more sensitive RX antennae, since there isn't the same size or weight restriction as on an airplane or a satellite. Come to think of it, an unmanned balloon is actually the wet dream from an antenna standpoint.
- dreamweapon 12y agoThe fun begins when people start going out to places currently not well-served by the usual mapping services -- places they normally wouldn't think of going, without extraordinary precautions -- thinking "Hey great, looks like we have this stuff everywhere now. Ain't everything just swell, here in The Future?" Until of course tricky weather or something else happens, and suddenly, they don't. http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-misleading-travel-companion http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-mi...
- jsprogrammer 12y agoThe difference with GPS is that these balloons (I assume) allow two-way communication, so if you are in trouble you can call for help and there's a good chance someone will actually be able to respond AND know your exact location.
- dreamweapon 12y agoUntil the day comes when balloons stop working for some reason. That's when the fun begins.
- anigbrowl 12y agoAs someone with experience of working in remote environments like deserts for weeks at a time, and is thus aware of both the benefits and limitations of technology, can I suggest that you give your smug muscle a rest? I find that people who are at pains to point out how much smarter they are than everyone else get in the way when there's actual work to be done.
- dreamweapon 12y agoEmpirical evidence gleaned from day-to-day observation (not to mention numerous news reports) suggest that a significant portion of the population is basically clueless about the limitations of this technology. They're also basically addicted to it (as in: a fair number of otherwise intelligent, well-educated people I know apparently can't, to save their own lives, navigate their own neighborhoods with a mapping service -- whereas 5 years ago they may have just been mildly impaired at the task). But if you feel the need to attack someone you'll most likely never see or meet as being "smug" for tangentially pointing out this fact (ironically backed by exultations of your own vastly superior experience in both technology remote environments) -- instead of minding whatever work someone is presumably paying you to be doing at this time, as we speak -- well, do what you need to do, I guess.
- dubcanada 12y agoDoes anyone know why this has not been done already? Having a ton of cell towers on the ground and trying to send signal through mountains and other various terrain does not work. So why not put one tower on the ground in a central area and have an array of balloons floating around?
- hberg 12y agoPlease append this to the headline: ... when that state is Rhode Island.
- spiritplumber 12y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX21nHv47ZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX21nHv47ZY Nice! Here's my little cell phone blimp. Can't do a proper altitude test right now because of wind.
- BorisMelnik 12y agoI thought this was called the "loon" program, not Google baloons? Either way, I love this type of innovation and this is what makes me really respect Google. Yes, I know it is all about bottom line and they will profit handsomely from it, but they are also helping the world become a better and safer place.
- josephschmoe 12y agoWow. Rhode Island is 1/5th the size of San Diego County, and 1/3rd the population.
- luckydata 12y agoalso 1/10th of the fun :-)
- luckydata 12y agoalso 1/10th of the fun :-)
- refurb 12y agoIf I remember correctly, you can drive across RI (east to west) in about 30-35 min. And that route isn't a straight line. RI is a super tiny state.
- allworknoplay 12y agoSeriously, most misleading headline ever.
- exabrial 12y agoA whole state... as long as you're not talking about 75% of states in the USA. :)
- veb 12y agoI wonder if they solved the whole issue of the balloons... lost to sea off the coast of NZ? http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/9012282/Googles-Project-Loon-balloons-lost-at-sea http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/9012282/Goo... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10182174/Google-to-reimburse-rescue-chopper http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10182174/Google-to-reimburse... http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60107516/googles-project-loon-balloons-fly-far-and-wide http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60107516/go...
- dguaraglia 12y agoOne thing people keep overlooking is the amount of power you'd need to draw to communicate with something that is that far. Your phone's battery would be dead in a few hours. The lead of the Loon project seemed pretty positive about it when I asked him, but I guess his aim is to provide LTE to areas without any coverage at all, instead of trying to use this as a substitute for proper infrastructure.
- nknighthb 12y agoUnfortunately, that's already reality in some areas with usable (though not great) LTE coverage. Having a more direct LOS to the balloon is a significant mitigating factor. There's also a factor not being noted here. The population at which a cell tower is feasible may drop substantially if the uplink consists of pointing an antenna at these balloons, increasing the number of relatively tiny villages that can have semi-conventional LTE service.
- walshemj 12y agoFor how many simultaneous users
- droidist2 12y agoSounds perfect for North Korea. twirls moustache