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so i clearly missed the mark here. does anyone care to educate me or just down vote without comment? (i'm being serious. i can't learn without feedback, and cl

by jheriko 12y ago

so i clearly missed the mark here. does anyone care to educate me or just down vote without comment? (i'm being serious. i can't learn without feedback, and clearly i am wrong, i just have no idea why)

smtddr 12y ago
Your downvotes are probably because of the blaming-the-victim section: >>in the case of this guy misbehaving it is in a very large part enabled by women in a combination of not standing up for themselves and sleeping with a jerk. you can't just ask everyone around you to stop this stuff if you are actively encouraging it yourself. it has to work both ways.
maged 12y ago
Nazre isn't being criticized for his consensual relationship with Pao. Its for his reaction to her ending it, as well as non consensual harrassment of other employees.
- hudibras 12y ago
  Well, he's also being criticized for lying about his marriage being over so that Pao would sleep with him.
- jheriko 12y ago
  right, but i think he deserved criticism from the moment he began pursuing her, and for his dogged persistence. the fact that he managed to end up in a relationship at all muddies the waters considerably imo, and makes it difficult to point at this as an example of how not behave in the work environment.
ecdavis 12y ago
You're getting downvoted because you're suggesting that women "enabled" and "actively encouraged" this man's behavior. In doing so, you're effectively shifting responsibility for this man's behavior onto other people. Hindsight is often blinding. It's easy to read this article and say that if Pao had simply chosen not to date him then none of this would've happened. I think that criticism lacks perspective. Should she have chosen to work at a different firm? That would also have avoided this situation. People's decisions are based on the information available to them at the time, including both their assumptions about the world and their past experiences. If their assumptions turn out to be wrong[0] or they lack a previous negative experience[1] to inform them they may well make a decision that others later point at and say was ill-advised. It's crucial to understand that even if the decision was a poor one, more often than not the person had no way of knowing that at the time. [0] For instance, "partners at Kleiner-Perkins will act professionally in the workplace, regardless of personal misgivings" [1] One which Pao has now gained w.r.t. office romances. > clearly i am wrong, i just have no idea why This is the line that prompted me to respond to your post. I disagree with you, and I have explained why above. I do not like this attitude, though - just because others disagree with you does not mean you are wrong. It is important not to discount your own opinion, especially on the Internet. Read what others have said in this thread, think critically about their views as well as your own and see where you end up.
- JulianMorrison 12y ago
  > if Pao had simply chosen not to date him then none of this would've happened. Or he would have not taken no for an answer and kept trying.That last is strongly suggested by the fact that he came on to her, got told "no, you are married", made up this whole elaborate lie of a separation, got told "no, you should reconcile", and then kept the lie rolling long enough that Ms Pao figured he was separated for real. This guy is as persistent as Pepe le Pew.
- jheriko 12y ago
  > Read what others have said in this thread, think critically about their views as well as your own and see where you end up. thanks for the honest reply. you offer a reasonable assessment, as much as i disagree that victim blaming is universally wrong. this man is responsible for his own actions, and that the bulk of the accusations here are serious regardless as to that behaviour. however, i think its damaging to the cause of preventing sexual harassment in the workplace if women do not consistently treat all men as equal in this regard - regardless as to how attractive they find them at the time (and e.g. coupled with how married they are)... it seems to me that it makes it impossible to set objective standards.

by jheriko 12y ago

smtddr 12y ago

Your downvotes are probably because of the blaming-the-victim section: >>in the case of this guy misbehaving it is in a very large part enabled by women in a combination of not standing up for themselves and sleeping with a jerk. you can't just ask everyone around you to stop this stuff if you are actively encouraging it yourself. it has to work both ways.

maged 12y ago

Nazre isn't being criticized for his consensual relationship with Pao. Its for his reaction to her ending it, as well as non consensual harrassment of other employees.

hudibras 12y ago
Well, he's also being criticized for lying about his marriage being over so that Pao would sleep with him.
jheriko 12y ago
right, but i think he deserved criticism from the moment he began pursuing her, and for his dogged persistence. the fact that he managed to end up in a relationship at all muddies the waters considerably imo, and makes it difficult to point at this as an example of how not behave in the work environment.

ecdavis 12y ago

You're getting downvoted because you're suggesting that women "enabled" and "actively encouraged" this man's behavior. In doing so, you're effectively shifting responsibility for this man's behavior onto other people. Hindsight is often blinding. It's easy to read this article and say that if Pao had simply chosen not to date him then none of this would've happened. I think that criticism lacks perspective. Should she have chosen to work at a different firm? That would also have avoided this situation. People's decisions are based on the information available to them at the time, including both their assumptions about the world and their past experiences. If their assumptions turn out to be wrong[0] or they lack a previous negative experience[1] to inform them they may well make a decision that others later point at and say was ill-advised. It's crucial to understand that even if the decision was a poor one, more often than not the person had no way of knowing that at the time. [0] For instance, "partners at Kleiner-Perkins will act professionally in the workplace, regardless of personal misgivings" [1] One which Pao has now gained w.r.t. office romances. > clearly i am wrong, i just have no idea why This is the line that prompted me to respond to your post. I disagree with you, and I have explained why above. I do not like this attitude, though - just because others disagree with you does not mean you are wrong. It is important not to discount your own opinion, especially on the Internet. Read what others have said in this thread, think critically about their views as well as your own and see where you end up.

JulianMorrison 12y ago
> if Pao had simply chosen not to date him then none of this would've happened. Or he would have not taken no for an answer and kept trying.That last is strongly suggested by the fact that he came on to her, got told "no, you are married", made up this whole elaborate lie of a separation, got told "no, you should reconcile", and then kept the lie rolling long enough that Ms Pao figured he was separated for real. This guy is as persistent as Pepe le Pew.
jheriko 12y ago
> Read what others have said in this thread, think critically about their views as well as your own and see where you end up. thanks for the honest reply. you offer a reasonable assessment, as much as i disagree that victim blaming is universally wrong. this man is responsible for his own actions, and that the bulk of the accusations here are serious regardless as to that behaviour. however, i think its damaging to the cause of preventing sexual harassment in the workplace if women do not consistently treat all men as equal in this regard - regardless as to how attractive they find them at the time (and e.g. coupled with how married they are)... it seems to me that it makes it impossible to set objective standards.