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Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appro

by iak8god 12y ago

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

bediger4000 12y ago
I'm not a Judge, I'm not even a lawyer (trained in the magical ways of USA law), but I doubt it's unethical for anyone to just explore the possible ways to subvert iOS or whatever. It might be illegal to explore those possibilities, if you're not one of the insiders (there's a difference in how David Petraeus was prosecuted, vs how Thomas Drake was prosecuted). Trying any particular method of subversion might end up unethical, or maybe even illegal, whether you're the CIA or Weev. I do not believe that the CIA, as it seems to exist today, is capable of doing that manner of subversion in a targeted way, they have gone rogue. I do not think that the CIA allows itself to be overseen. That part of the question is just not possible to answer.
- iak8god 12y ago
  If I understand correctly, you believe that the entire CIA as it currently exists is unethical and illegal. That may be a defensible position but it's an obstacle to discussing any specific action: how could you then support any action by the CIA? If the CIA shouldn't do anything then of course they shouldn't do this.
  - bediger4000 12y ago
    you believe that the entire CIA as it currently exists is unethical and illegal. The CIA, as it appears now, does a huge number of unethical and apparently illegal things. It appears to be beyond oversight or control. I do find it really hard to support any action by them, just as I would find it hard to support FSB or MI6 actions. The CIA appears to be a threat to civil liberties and representative democracy in the US itself right now. But you're falling into a rhetorical trap: just because coffee is hot, you don't wait until the coffee is cold to drink it. You can judge relative degrees of hot, just as we can judge relative degrees of unethicality. It's pretty darn bad to assassinate US citizens without due process, and I'd say due process in public, whether the citizen is abroad or on homeland soil. It's pretty darn bad to torture anyone. It's less bad to attempt to crack iOS to spy on people, and it would be even less wrong to explore the exploitability of iOS. The latter may not be wrong at all. It's completely OK to analyze open source intelligence.
tajen 12y ago
Using "appropriate" and "oversight" in the same sentence is exactly what a smear campaign would be about.
- iak8god 12y ago
  Sorry, I don't follow.

by iak8god 12y ago

Do you think it is illegal or unethical for the CIA to just explore these capabilities, or to develop them and use them only in a targeted way, subject to appropriate oversight?

bediger4000 12y ago

I'm not a Judge, I'm not even a lawyer (trained in the magical ways of USA law), but I doubt it's unethical for anyone to just explore the possible ways to subvert iOS or whatever. It might be illegal to explore those possibilities, if you're not one of the insiders (there's a difference in how David Petraeus was prosecuted, vs how Thomas Drake was prosecuted). Trying any particular method of subversion might end up unethical, or maybe even illegal, whether you're the CIA or Weev. I do not believe that the CIA, as it seems to exist today, is capable of doing that manner of subversion in a targeted way, they have gone rogue. I do not think that the CIA allows itself to be overseen. That part of the question is just not possible to answer.

iak8god 12y ago
If I understand correctly, you believe that the entire CIA as it currently exists is unethical and illegal. That may be a defensible position but it's an obstacle to discussing any specific action: how could you then support any action by the CIA? If the CIA shouldn't do anything then of course they shouldn't do this.
- bediger4000 12y ago
  you believe that the entire CIA as it currently exists is unethical and illegal. The CIA, as it appears now, does a huge number of unethical and apparently illegal things. It appears to be beyond oversight or control. I do find it really hard to support any action by them, just as I would find it hard to support FSB or MI6 actions. The CIA appears to be a threat to civil liberties and representative democracy in the US itself right now. But you're falling into a rhetorical trap: just because coffee is hot, you don't wait until the coffee is cold to drink it. You can judge relative degrees of hot, just as we can judge relative degrees of unethicality. It's pretty darn bad to assassinate US citizens without due process, and I'd say due process in public, whether the citizen is abroad or on homeland soil. It's pretty darn bad to torture anyone. It's less bad to attempt to crack iOS to spy on people, and it would be even less wrong to explore the exploitability of iOS. The latter may not be wrong at all. It's completely OK to analyze open source intelligence.

tajen 12y ago

Using "appropriate" and "oversight" in the same sentence is exactly what a smear campaign would be about.

iak8god 12y ago
Sorry, I don't follow.