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I agree, I've read a few 'screw Mongo, I'm going to SQL' type blogs, it really seems like they either didn't grasp how to architect Mongo correctly and tried to

by warble 12y ago

I agree, I've read a few 'screw Mongo, I'm going to SQL' type blogs, it really seems like they either didn't grasp how to architect Mongo correctly and tried to do things that don't work well with it, or they had a problem that was better solved by SQL in the first place. SQL does many things very well that noSQL stuff won't. Also vice-versa.

jonaldomo 12y ago
I couldn't agree more with you. I love SQL for when I have a concrete data model, when I don't I love NoSQL. I could use both if I really wanted to, but you need to know when to force a square peg into a circle. Mongo has a good how to on it here. http://blog.mongodb.org/post/72874267152/transitioning-from-relational-databases-to-mongodb http://blog.mongodb.org/post/72874267152/transitioning-from-...
SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago
I honestly don't think I've ever seen a valid use case for Mongo. If you're going to query your data, you have to know what fields you're looking for, right? So why not create a schema that has those fields?
- platz 12y ago
  the only valid use case is when your data is so unstructured so that you don't care what the fields in it are and you treat it like a black box. So maybe some kind of user-generated markup that you just shift in and out. those kinds of applications are not usually kinds of problems we have to solve.
- stephenboyd 12y ago
  Mongo doesn't stop you from using a schema, but you'll have to enforce it in your application code rather than the database itself.
  - darkarmani 12y ago
    > but you'll have to enforce it in your application code rather than the database itself. You mean in every one of your application's code. You are using a schema no matter what, but it's a missing feature in mongo.
- rmrfrmrf 12y ago
  If you're doing a "tracer bullet"-style method of development where the requirements aren't quite set in stone, MongoDB and other schemaless databases can really save time when it comes to adding basic functionality quickly. Another use case: if you have an ad-hoc group of developers working on a project in a decentralized fashion, they can each work on local codebases of the project without needing an up-to-date setup script or migration scripts. I'd maybe even argue that a lot of these "goodbye MongoDB" developer blog posts are sort of unnecessary. MongoDB allows for fast deployment and the convenience of a flexible database at the cost of speed, so eventual migration to a more solid relational database could/should be part of a long-term plan when devs choose to use MongoDB. It's all about using the right tool for the job.
- nawitus 12y ago
  You can know a field or fields of the data while leaving the possibility of extra fields that you don't need to know. In practice if you're making a web application and dealing with JSON, it's typically very easy to work with JSON-based databases instead of using serialization functions. You can enforce the schema with various tools at the application level when needed. MongoDB also has some performance benefits over many traditional databases, and has "native" support for binary data. I personally prefer CouchDB over MongoDB for most application that are well suited to use a "NoSQL" database, but MongoDB is sometimes decent too.
Twirrim 12y ago
This is really what he's driving at with the newtech koolaid. People jumped on MongoDB etc. bandwagon because they drank the koolaid of "Schema less is best!" and "It's so fast and shiny!" without really understanding the problem, let alone the right solution. Unfortunately this seems to be a regular pattern in tech, a mistake (mostly) repeated by the young fresh developers coming in. Usually after you get burned once or twice you stop making that mistake. I'm not a Comp Sci grad so can't speak from experience, but most of the syllabuses I've seen seem to focus on a very short term, single semester (or at most year) approach to projects. It would be good if they could start with a project and be required to re-write, adapt or improve some kind of project from beginning of the college time to the end. It would be a good introduction to technical debt, amongst other problems. (Heck if you really want to go for broke, maybe even mix things up a little, next semester you'll be working with someone elses code! That would be painful but might teach people the value of good comments, tests etc.)
- emodendroket 12y ago
  I guess but college isn't a vocational school. The point is to understand the CS concepts and not necessarily to know all the engineering kind of stuff you'd need in a "real-world" project (which often won't be "challenging" in the CS department).
- dspillett 12y ago
  > This is really what he's driving at with the newtech koolaid. People jumped on MongoDB etc. bandwagon because they drank the koolaid of "Schema less is best!" and "It's so fast and shiny!" without really understanding the problem, let alone the right solution. Exactly. People report "X makes Y so easy!" and because of the breathy excited "look what I did in just an hour" blog posts the naive believe that using X for Y or similar things negates the need to properly design and think ahead. If you take that approach then even if you are accidentally using the right tool doe the job, you may well be using it very wrongly and creating an unmaintainable and/or inefficient mess that you'll have to fix later. A few days coding can save you a good hour or three of design and thinking beforehand.

by warble 12y ago

jonaldomo 12y ago

I couldn't agree more with you. I love SQL for when I have a concrete data model, when I don't I love NoSQL. I could use both if I really wanted to, but you need to know when to force a square peg into a circle. Mongo has a good how to on it here. http://blog.mongodb.org/post/72874267152/transitioning-from-relational-databases-to-mongodb http://blog.mongodb.org/post/72874267152/transitioning-from-...

SnacksOnAPlane 12y ago

I honestly don't think I've ever seen a valid use case for Mongo. If you're going to query your data, you have to know what fields you're looking for, right? So why not create a schema that has those fields?

platz 12y ago
the only valid use case is when your data is so unstructured so that you don't care what the fields in it are and you treat it like a black box. So maybe some kind of user-generated markup that you just shift in and out. those kinds of applications are not usually kinds of problems we have to solve.
stephenboyd 12y ago
Mongo doesn't stop you from using a schema, but you'll have to enforce it in your application code rather than the database itself.
- darkarmani 12y ago
  > but you'll have to enforce it in your application code rather than the database itself. You mean in every one of your application's code. You are using a schema no matter what, but it's a missing feature in mongo.
rmrfrmrf 12y ago
If you're doing a "tracer bullet"-style method of development where the requirements aren't quite set in stone, MongoDB and other schemaless databases can really save time when it comes to adding basic functionality quickly. Another use case: if you have an ad-hoc group of developers working on a project in a decentralized fashion, they can each work on local codebases of the project without needing an up-to-date setup script or migration scripts. I'd maybe even argue that a lot of these "goodbye MongoDB" developer blog posts are sort of unnecessary. MongoDB allows for fast deployment and the convenience of a flexible database at the cost of speed, so eventual migration to a more solid relational database could/should be part of a long-term plan when devs choose to use MongoDB. It's all about using the right tool for the job.
nawitus 12y ago
You can know a field or fields of the data while leaving the possibility of extra fields that you don't need to know. In practice if you're making a web application and dealing with JSON, it's typically very easy to work with JSON-based databases instead of using serialization functions. You can enforce the schema with various tools at the application level when needed. MongoDB also has some performance benefits over many traditional databases, and has "native" support for binary data. I personally prefer CouchDB over MongoDB for most application that are well suited to use a "NoSQL" database, but MongoDB is sometimes decent too.

Twirrim 12y ago

This is really what he's driving at with the newtech koolaid. People jumped on MongoDB etc. bandwagon because they drank the koolaid of "Schema less is best!" and "It's so fast and shiny!" without really understanding the problem, let alone the right solution. Unfortunately this seems to be a regular pattern in tech, a mistake (mostly) repeated by the young fresh developers coming in. Usually after you get burned once or twice you stop making that mistake. I'm not a Comp Sci grad so can't speak from experience, but most of the syllabuses I've seen seem to focus on a very short term, single semester (or at most year) approach to projects. It would be good if they could start with a project and be required to re-write, adapt or improve some kind of project from beginning of the college time to the end. It would be a good introduction to technical debt, amongst other problems. (Heck if you really want to go for broke, maybe even mix things up a little, next semester you'll be working with someone elses code! That would be painful but might teach people the value of good comments, tests etc.)

emodendroket 12y ago
I guess but college isn't a vocational school. The point is to understand the CS concepts and not necessarily to know all the engineering kind of stuff you'd need in a "real-world" project (which often won't be "challenging" in the CS department).
dspillett 12y ago
> This is really what he's driving at with the newtech koolaid. People jumped on MongoDB etc. bandwagon because they drank the koolaid of "Schema less is best!" and "It's so fast and shiny!" without really understanding the problem, let alone the right solution. Exactly. People report "X makes Y so easy!" and because of the breathy excited "look what I did in just an hour" blog posts the naive believe that using X for Y or similar things negates the need to properly design and think ahead. If you take that approach then even if you are accidentally using the right tool doe the job, you may well be using it very wrongly and creating an unmaintainable and/or inefficient mess that you'll have to fix later. A few days coding can save you a good hour or three of design and thinking beforehand.