29 ms·

Best way to handle interviewer asking me out on a date after tech screen?

126 points by luu 12y ago

freddealmeida 12y ago
That is so unprofessional I can't fathom it. Never work for a company that values professionalism so low.
- codeduck 12y ago
  I doubt this is a company-wide problem. I think this is an employee with a serious inability to appreciate boundaries, and he should be removed from his position of responsibility.
  - slantedview 12y ago
    Yet somehow this guy wormed his way into interviewing her. Someone let that happen, and someone gave this guy interviewing responsibilities.
    - codeduck 12y ago
      Small company, he's a programmer - primary interviewer is busy (something came up) - asks another technical person to cover for him. Happens all the time in startups / small companies.
      - cglee 12y ago
        Question isn't if it happens all the time in small companies. What's under discussion is whether this is what we want in our (the startup/tech) industry, whether this is ok, or if there's something we should try to do about it. First step is awareness, then next step is recognizing there's a problem. Your comment stops at the first step.
        codeduck 12y ago
        I was pointing out that the fact that this guy was conducting interviews was understandable in the context of a small company - I have picked up interviews for team members before when they were unable to make them. I meant no implication about it being acceptable in small companies - it is unacceptable everywhere.
        woah 12y ago
        Having a pretty tough time understanding this comment... Are you saying that having someone fill in for an interviewer is a huge problem that we should "all try to do something about"?
      - uptown 12y ago
        Or.... Small company, he's a programmer - primary interviewer is in a relationship (last candidate said 'yes') - asks another technical interviewer if he's interested in this candidate's headshot. Happens all the time in startups / small companies. My guess is about as feasible as yours, no?
        codeduck 12y ago
        I have never worked in a company, large or small, where my coworkers behaved in this manner. Meanwhile, I have worked in numerous companies where a colleague was not able to make a scheduled interview and asked me to stand in for them instead. I'm not discounting the possibility of your guess, but I have never experienced it personally, and I would have a major issue working with anyone who behaved in this manner in a professional environment.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  The way interview went or asking someone you rejected for a job for a date ... or both taken together?
RDeckard 12y ago
I see nothing wrong with what he did. She was not hired for objective reasons. The fact that he asked her out after is completely orthogonal. Are there any MEN left on HN?
- archagon 12y ago
  OK, I was willing to at least entertain your comment until that last sentence there. As a bona-fide MAN on HN, the anecdote reads as extremely slimy to me. And it's pretty clear that women have to deal with this kind of BS constantly.
  - kelukelugames 12y ago
    His phrasing definitely can be improved. But a lot of people in the reddit thread are incorrect. There is a difference between what is illegal and what is slimy. What the interviewer did is inappropriate but there is no proof that discrimination occurred. I think it's unethical to hit on co-workers, direct reports and especially interviewees, but there are two people on my team who met their spouses during an interview at previous companies. Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. The people asking her to lawyer up do not understand employment law. Unethical behavior doesn't automatically mean it's illegal. The definition for discrimination is pretty strict. Unless you can prove the interviewer has a pattern of rejecting female candidates and then asking them for dates then there is no case here. The other point I wanted to make is there are people who date their interviewers. Does that mean it's not sketchy? No. But the success stories serve as encouragement for this kind of behavior.
- mikeash 12y ago
  Real men do not abuse a position of power to pressure women into accepting a date.
  - borski 12y ago
    Not trying to cause a stir, but where does it say he pressured her? I read it as "he asked me out on a date," not "he told me if I didn't go on a date with him he wouldn't hire me and he'd kill my firstborn." She had already not gotten the job. Not saying this is ok, but it doesn't sound like much pressure was applied.
ihsw 12y ago
* Say no. * Forward copies of emails to the company's leadership/HR department. * Keep printed copies of the emails handy in case he decides to retaliate with lawyers. * Keep your own legal counsel on speed-dial. * Move on with your life. There's not much you can do from a legal standpoint, with regards to grievance/redress. Escalating the situation through contacting his boss/HR carries a risk, even though you have the moral high-ground, but it could work in getting him punished. Or it could achieve absolutely nothing. Or he has a long history of this abusive behavior and this is the last straw that will get him ejected from the company for being a serious liability/generally unpleasant. He has your resume, and he's exhibited awful behavior -- legal counsel should definitely be at your disposal on a moments notice. Naturally, if it really interests you, you can consult a lawyer to verify whether there are any punitive measures you can apply against him. The OP hasn't indicated that the guy has harassed her per se, so I don't know if she has any legal standing regarding that.
- MollyR 12y ago
  This is the best advice I've seen. Also I'd like to add,if you can don't escalate to a lawsuit prematurely. A lot of companies avoid hiring a person who files lawsuits against corporations. Its unfair, but its how the real world works. HR exists to protect the company not its people. I know I mention this a lot on HN, but also read Corporate Confidential to understand how American Corporations and HR really works.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    It seems to me that informing HR, and telling him no (and why) is enough. I most certainly would not initiate a lawsuit over something like this. It was inappropriate and unprofessional; don't respond with something over the top, which is unprofessional in a different way. But I'm male, and have literally never been harassed at work over anything (not gender, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, facial hair, choice of editor... nothing), so what do I know?
    - ihsw 12y ago
      Indeed, I'm not advocating filing a lawsuit, however notifying his employer of the situation does carry risk of retaliation.
ottonomy 12y ago
Oof. The poster should forward that email to whoever else at the company can deal with it so that hopefully someone else doesn't have to deal with it in the future.
hoopism 12y ago
Regardless of whether it was done creepily or innocently it's not something I would do or tolerate. Without any context I thought this seemed like an innocent scenario (guy is not a creep)... but it doesn't matter. It's inappropriate regardless.
ditonal 12y ago
You know, I'm all about being laid back and rejecting traditional corporate culture, because you can be serious without a suit. But you still need the "be serious" part, which somehow got lost between all the ping pong tables and beer on tap. I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like negotiate compensation. I really hope that the tech scene can hold on to the fun parts of what makes it special, while getting rid of terrible things like this. But, in my opinion, culture and professionalism starts at the top, even if it's easy to go after the low-status, low-political-power programmers at the bottom. The typical company will give you sexual harassment training and fire people who do inappropriate things, but the same companies encourage their 20-somethings to get wasted at Friday happy hours and have few to no women on their board of directors or executive management positions, and that culture of men-in-charge inevitably trickles down.
- baddox 12y ago
  > I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like negotiate compensation. I don't approve of this situation, but I also don't buy your general argument (especially for things like ping pong tables and beer on tap). You seem to be referring to "professionalism" as some concrete normative standard, but in reality, what is considered "professionalism" changes over time and differs between people, industries, and geographic regions at any given time.
  - ditonal 12y ago
    You are misunderstanding my point. I am fine with ping-pong tables and beer on tap, if they come with professionalism, where professionalism includes things like not sexually harassing women. Alcohol especially needs to be handled with care, and encouraging employees to have more than one drink is downright irresponsible. My point was that there is a contingent of business-types whose gameplan is to use the fun stuff as an excuse to drop professionalism, as in, why should you ask for a raise when you're having so much fun here? It's one big party! The reason I say this is that I was recently job interviewing and I had one company that acted like this, and even brought me into a Friday happy hour as part of the interview process, where a bunch of young males were playing beer pong. First of all, how is that not a hostile environment for a woman? Secondly, I didn't want to drink, so was I supposed to look like I was no fun or bend my principles? Finally, when I complained to the recruiter, I was told they _only_ did that for engineers, and it was clear to me that it was a general strategy of indoctrination to avoid paying market rate, because it was all fun and games until we started talking compensation. And the company I most recently worked with before was more or less the same, the startup industry is filled with companies exactly like this. We have a culture of brogrammers because the VCs create it to avoid paying engineers. And if you think programmers are all men, take a look at the VC and senior management gender diversity sometime.
beenpoor 12y ago
I will go out on my limb here. It was a mistake on his part. See if you are willing to let him go with a caution. I know everyone is crying for blood and it is justified. Going to HR will likely ruin his resume for life (possibly).
- HaloZero 12y ago
  I really don't imagine that this will ruin him for life, but HR/CEO should be notified of his behavior in order to at the very least reprimand him. I'm not saying he should be fired but professionalism is required at workplace and this is an abuse of power.
- archagon 12y ago
  I think this perspective is at least worth discussing. On the other hand, a) He's in his 30's and should know better. b) He has no rapport with OP and knows basically nothing about her. c) This is a pattern of behavior that women in the industry have to deal with all the time, not just an isolated incident. (See the comments in the thread.) When I look at issues like this as a guy, I have to remind myself that "feeling sorry for the perpetrator" is in fact one of the many anti-patterns that leads to this kind of hostile environment in the first place. So I cannot judge the victim for whatever decision she makes. Were I in her shoes, I would probably send the guy a harshly-worded e-mail instead of escalating to HR. I don't like the idea of someone losing their job over a really dumb decision they made in the heat of the moment. But I am not a woman and I haven't had to go through life getting worn down by dozens of incidents like this one, so my perspective here is kind of meaningless.
- eli 12y ago
  HR exists for addressing problems like this. You absolutely should talk to them. I don't think it will "ruin his life" but whatever action is taken (if any) is ultimately up to his bosses. This is unacceptable behavior and if no one ever says anything about it, there's no reason to think it won't continue.
  - beenpoor 12y ago
    After some thought, I agree HR should be involved to caution him. As for ruining his life, it feels like a stretch - but imagine, he is publicly outed (with this much attention, it's possible). People have their pitchforks out - so I know this viewpoint will be downvoted. But it is best if she brings this issue with HR and deal with it internally with the company.
Archio 12y ago
What the fuck? How does this shit happen? How on earth does someone, male or female, get into such a state that they think it is appropriate to do something like this in a professional setting? Can someone explain to me how this works? I'm male in a male-dominated industry, and of course I don't give a damn what people look like and treat everyone with respect. The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male friends (or female friends) would be capable of doing something like this. Where the hell do these people come from, and how can this be stopped? I hate it when shit like this happens because I worry people will associate this behavior with me.
- jerf 12y ago
  Go read your local court blotter or something. You would apparently be surprised what actually exists in the world. We don't have laws against this sort of thing because nobody ever does them. We more have laws against this sort of thing because it's perfectly "natural" (as in "the way nature has made us", not "good"). "Where the hell do these people come from, and how can this be stopped?" Everywhere, and it can't be stopped. Only slowed down, and reparations made and justice done after-the-fact, but stopping it is not on the table. Which is part of why getting too emotional in one instance isn't all that helpful... you literally wouldn't have time to hear about every single problem of this caliber that occurs somewhere in the world because you literally can not take the information in that quickly.
- jpk 12y ago
  That's the thing. He already knows this is inappropriate, but then did it anyway. Which is arguably worse.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  > The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male friends (or female friends) would be capable of doing something like this. I know guys who I wouldn't be surprised to see do something like this, mostly from the bar I go to. I have female friends who know lots of guys who would stoop to this. They would not necessarily believe there's a lot wrong with it, and might welcome the advance if they liked the way he looked or acted. This guy did it sight unseen though, I can't see any of my friends going for that. There's a pervasive element in society of success in dating requiring playing a numbers game, on both sides of the gender fence. My female friends all expect me to be asking out any girl I think is attractive. Being asked out is something that just happens all the time for them, they just seem to get used to it. The context matters mostly as a signal for what it's going to be like to date them. An attractive female coworker of mine told me about how a lawyer who hires her on the side to help him with document stuff asked her to dinner on a business pretext and at that dinner was feeling her out for willingness to date him. I was surprised that she accepted his invitation and didn't slam him for being a creep for his behavior. She thought it was weird but didn't have a huge reaction or anything, she told me like one might talk about any weird thing that happens to you in the course of a day. I have one IRL female friend who was a feminist and would definitely see something wrong with this behavior. She's also extremely attractive and describes getting hit on constantly. She definitely does not have a neutral reaction to it. But she also relayed her fear to me that she'll never be able to get married because feminism.
AdmiralAsshat 12y ago
Wasn't there some recent ruling that indicated interns and the like are not protected from sexual harassment because they're not technically employees? I feel like a prospective interviewee would fall under that same umbrella, and hence a legal case would ultimately go nowhere. Not to mention that, as has previously been mentioned on HN, HR is designed to protect the company from you, not the other way around. I'd bypass the legal system altogether (which increasingly seems designed to protect this kind of atrocious behavior) and go straight to the media with it. Public shaming unfortunately seems to be the only way to combat this.
timdaub 12y ago
Since OP mentioned that the company in question is a startup which implies a fair chance that they not yet have a HR department or that even some of the founders took part in this sexist behavior, IMHO OP should not hesitate to call out names (only the company's) as it seems it is the only way to punish this behavior.
jarin 12y ago
Dating within the tech industry is tough, especially when most of the people you meet are also in tech, but you also don't want to contribute to the problem of creating an environment where women feel like they're constantly being evaluated not only for their skills but also as potential partners. As a guy, it's probably best to just put the idea out of your mind altogether unless specifically approached. Meeting romantic partners at work is extremely common in other industries, but most of them don't have the same gender imbalance problems that we do in STEM fields. I think it probably sucks for everyone that dating in the tech industry is such a tricky thing, but I think that's probably just a sacrifice we're going to have to make until we've got a better culture and gender balance. It's definitely not ok to take advantage of the power relationship between interviewer and interviewee in any case.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  > ...unless specifically approached. I don't even think that's a good idea. I don't live in the U.S. or in the western world for that matter but from my reading of all issues in the tech industry from HN it seems to me the best approach is to pretend your a eunuch at work or around your colleagues no matter the location.
  - jarin 12y ago
    Yeah, that's definitely a tricky subject without a clear cut answer. My personal opinion though is that denying agency to a woman (i.e. her right to choose to ask someone out if she wants to) is just as bad, though. It's like saying that women aren't capable of making their own decisions about it. I mean, the whole end goal of this thing is not to dehumanize everyone and turn us all into code-writing, celibate, emotionless Vulcans, but to create a welcoming environment where currently under-represented groups have the same opportunities and respect as everyone else.
  - BadassFractal 12y ago
    I concur. I don't see how there's a way for genders to coexist in the same work space without leaving sexuality completely out the door. Too many opportunities for awkwardness, misunderstanding, legal liability, public shaming, Internet outrage. It's not worth it. Work spaces must be 100% asexual, I don't see how else you'd accomplish this. Open to suggestions.
uiuixqqxxq 12y ago
Something similar happened to me as well. Colleague invited me on date, but there was no date, just virus removal from from Windows. I reported that person to HR, but they refused to fire her.
woof 12y ago
I don't see the drama, but then again I'm a guy (40+). If he just waited a few weeks with that second mail, we could hardly fault him for being unprofessional could we? I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the "more experience" part sounds plausible). And if she was a really interesting candidate, another tech screen or phone interview would be natural. I'd tell any friend to say "thanks, but no thanks" and move on. (If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then)
- genofon 12y ago
  >I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the "more experience" part sounds plausible). please don't speculate, as she said if they were looking for "more experience" why would he interviewed her in the first place? He also admitted that her cv was interesting >(If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then) hitting on a co-worker is much more complicated than hitting on someone outside the company. that's the point. He is clearly abusing his position of power, it's not ethical and probably also against the company's policy.
  - ddoolin 12y ago
    You're speculating in the same breath with which you say not to speculate. We don't know why they interviewed her, and frankly we interview people fairly often that don't have the requisite experience on paper because we know it often has little to do with what's on the paper, a lesson HN readers are VERY familiar with (the whole "meritocracy" thing).
    - genofon 12y ago
      based on the information we have he didn't do anything to test her experience.
    - genofon 12y ago
      based on the information we have he didn't do anything to test her experience.
  - 12y ago
BadassFractal 12y ago
I'd also add it's possible some of these men are desperate for a date, given how hard it to get one in some areas of the country that are heavy in tech. He knows he shouldn't, but he's desperate.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- kelukelugames 12y ago
  This is why gender imbalance is bad for everyone involved. Not saying there should be more women in tech so men can find dates. The point is being around more women at work will help people learn what is socially appropriate.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
MangoDiesel 12y ago
Unfortunately, I think the best way (safest) to handle this as someone new out of school without a network is to ignore it and move on to other potential opportunities. Most likely, this is an issue isolated to this one employee, who should have his position of responsibility in the hiring process stripped, written up/ demotion, whatever tools are available to the company to _strongly_ reprimand him. There is a chance that this person (who has already shown to be outrageously unprofessional) would retaliate. He has your resume which likely significant personal information such as cell phone and address. If you had a network, the best course of action would be to find someone you trust who is connected to the CEO. Any CEO who is not breeding a malignant culture would be absolutely appalled by this employee's actions. The CEO is fortunate to have a female grad student from a top 3 school applying to work at his/her company. Diversity is incredibly valuable to teams, and hi-jacking the hiring process into a personal dating workflow displays such egregiously bad judgement I would probably be personally offended as the CEO to the point of firing the person.
- pyrocat 12y ago
  Ignoring the problem is how we got into this situation in the first place.
crimsonalucard 12y ago
If the interviewee found him attractive would this be an issue for her? I doubt it. Just say no and move on, don't do anything to aggravate the issue.
- x0ra 12y ago
  Because in today's USA, dating should be done in front of lawyers...
- scott_s 12y ago
  Please don't propagate the myth that women only object to inappropriate behavior from people they are not attracted to.
  - crimsonalucard 12y ago
    I'm propagating no such thing. I'm saying the behavior would no longer be considered inappropriate if there was mutual attraction. I sincerely believe this will still be the case even if the genders are flipped.
    - scott_s 12y ago
      And I'm saying that saying such is propagating that myth.
pfortuny 12y ago
Just say NO.
psykovsky 12y ago
This sounds like feminist PR bullshit to me. The timing of it makes me suspicious that it has something to do with that annoying ex-googler chick... But what do I know, right? EDIT: details added.
ocdtrekkie 12y ago
I would report it to their superior, or the CEO if they are the head of HR. Particularly since it sounds like he may not have provided you a fair interview. Equality doesn't happen if people are silent about injustices.
x0ra 12y ago
So what ? Should men just refrain themselves if they find a cute girl ? The US society has become really low (though, not as much as Japan). Why is this wrong when women (say, Zoe Quinn), not only uses their pussy to promote themselves, but are defended by every feminazi ? ...
mdnormy 12y ago
The problem with deducting from one side of a story is you can't reach a definitive conclusion. For example if you read the first 4 paragraph, that is 'the essence' of most interviews. Assuming it is, what the interviewer is doing after, are inappropriate but "thanks, but no thanks" would be adequate response in my opinion. People make dumb mistakes some time. But if OP highly suspected that the interviewer does not intend to do proper interview from the beginning and only interested to her personally, reporting to HR is the only way to go.
tzs 12y ago
So what are the rules for contacting someone you once interviewed in order to suggest social interaction? NOTE: I said "social interaction" rather than "a date" because I'm asking about more general situations. For instance, suppose you interview someone, and (unlike the guy in this incident) are not using the interview to try to find someone to date. You stick to questions specific to the job, plus more general questions about the things on their resume, including open source projects they say they contributed to. You find them interesting and witty and enjoyed talking with them, but there is someone better qualified who gets the job. Six months later, you are planning to attend a one day conference on an open source project you contribute to. It's a 3 hour drive to the conference. You don't know anyone in your area who works on that project to ask along to make the drive more interesting. Then you remember the person you interviewed six months earlier is also a contributor to the project. Is it acceptable to contact them and tell them you are driving to the conference and would like to find someone to come along to make the ride more social, and asking if they would like to be that person?
- Borogove 12y ago
  Sure, why not? You're not in a professional relationship. You aren't in a position to influence a hiring decision. You're two humans with common interests.
- tach4n 12y ago
  There's not gonna be some neat little checklist for you, you have to just develop the ability to reason about social dynamics. > Is it acceptable to contact them and tell them you are driving to the conference and would like to find someone to come along to make the ride more social, and asking if they would like to be that person? Based on exactly how your question is worded, no. I think most people would feel uncomfortable with a relative stranger reaching out to them specifically and asking to carpool. You have to consider the dynamics of the situation too: What are the ages of the people involved? What are the genders? What are their roles in the community, etc. These factors can make it anything from a friendly, but still not terribly appropriate request to downright creepy and possibly exploitative. You brought up time, which is another dynamic to consider as well. I'm sure if we thought hard, we could come up with some nice rule of thumb like "if you're going to do this at all, it should be at least X weeks/months/etc later" - but really it's more about whether everyone can actually move on and what the new social dynamics are. If by this point the other party is well established in another company, not looking for a job, etc - it's much easier to put the whole interview behind everyone involved. If you're both contributors to a project, why have you not interacted already? Have you been reading their social cues? Some people are very open to meeting new people. If you interview someone and you genuinely find them interesting - see if they have a blog or twitter or something. See how they interact with people there. After considering the other factors, IF you decide to engage them, do it some place they are obviously comfortable and giving off cues that they want to interact. Presumably there is some mailing list or discussion area for the project, see if they are open to interacting there. You also need to be really honest and examine your own motivations and make sure you act accordingly and are not deceptive about it either to yourself or others. If you're really interested in just making the trip less lonely, why not put out a general call? "Hey I'm headed to X conference, anyone want to carpool?" You might get some replies from people you're not interested in riding with for whatever reason, in which case you'll just have to deal with it in an appropriate way. Either tolerate them, or come up with some excuse to exclude that person politely ("oh, I think all the spots are accounted for, but I'll keep you in mind"). You'll have to accept that in a lot of cases, the fact that you had a failed business relationship with a person will preclude you having a personal relationship with them.
therebase 12y ago
my 2 cents: * Say no to date in person * Decline the job for reasons that you explain to the HR department: He asked you out on a date in a professional setting (I must inform you .... I regret ... best regards). Writing this in a friendly form (the HR person receiving this mail has not asked you for a date). This person will be up in arms for you. You will receive a very very friendly call from someone up the foodchain. See, it happened in person .. so you cant prove shit. But if you are a boss. * Do not send the mail CC to the interviewer * Close the mail friendly with best regards * Document what you can. I guess the interviewer did not do this in written form. * Go on and strike this company off the list of companies that you aspire to work for. Do not believe this was an single incident. When hiring people everything should be extra shiny (normally you discover problems after starting). So with 15 years experience in the field: that shop is crap! One thing: The tech job market is a sellers market. More people want to hire than there are able engineers. You are not the one asking for something only. The company is as well. A work relationship must be on the basis of a mutual understanding what is ok and what not. Seems you have a difference here. Good luck for the job hunt. The good companies are out there (and many people who can show you the way for harassment free work experiences).
khug 12y ago
As far as I can tell, the offence here is that he used privileged information (contact details from her job application) to contact her about a personal matter (the date). Once her application was rejected there ceased to be a meaningful power relationship. Some people seem to be implying that there remains a professional power relationship since she may choose to apply at the company in the future, but I doubt that has any practical or legal teeth. The same could be true of all her potential future employers OR her future employees, vendors, customers, etc... So what he did was creepy and unprofessional, yes. But let's understand why and to exactly what degree before deciding what the appropriate response should be. Personally, I would contact the HR department and inform them that I didn't appreciate company employees using the contact details from my application to solicit me for a date.

126 points by luu 12y ago

freddealmeida 12y ago

That is so unprofessional I can't fathom it. Never work for a company that values professionalism so low.

codeduck 12y ago
I doubt this is a company-wide problem. I think this is an employee with a serious inability to appreciate boundaries, and he should be removed from his position of responsibility.
- slantedview 12y ago
  Yet somehow this guy wormed his way into interviewing her. Someone let that happen, and someone gave this guy interviewing responsibilities.
  - codeduck 12y ago
    Small company, he's a programmer - primary interviewer is busy (something came up) - asks another technical person to cover for him. Happens all the time in startups / small companies.
    - cglee 12y ago
      Question isn't if it happens all the time in small companies. What's under discussion is whether this is what we want in our (the startup/tech) industry, whether this is ok, or if there's something we should try to do about it. First step is awareness, then next step is recognizing there's a problem. Your comment stops at the first step.
      - codeduck 12y ago
        I was pointing out that the fact that this guy was conducting interviews was understandable in the context of a small company - I have picked up interviews for team members before when they were unable to make them. I meant no implication about it being acceptable in small companies - it is unacceptable everywhere.
      - woah 12y ago
        Having a pretty tough time understanding this comment... Are you saying that having someone fill in for an interviewer is a huge problem that we should "all try to do something about"?
    - uptown 12y ago
      Or.... Small company, he's a programmer - primary interviewer is in a relationship (last candidate said 'yes') - asks another technical interviewer if he's interested in this candidate's headshot. Happens all the time in startups / small companies. My guess is about as feasible as yours, no?
      - codeduck 12y ago
        I have never worked in a company, large or small, where my coworkers behaved in this manner. Meanwhile, I have worked in numerous companies where a colleague was not able to make a scheduled interview and asked me to stand in for them instead. I'm not discounting the possibility of your guess, but I have never experienced it personally, and I would have a major issue working with anyone who behaved in this manner in a professional environment.
venomsnake 12y ago
The way interview went or asking someone you rejected for a job for a date ... or both taken together?

RDeckard 12y ago

I see nothing wrong with what he did. She was not hired for objective reasons. The fact that he asked her out after is completely orthogonal. Are there any MEN left on HN?

archagon 12y ago
OK, I was willing to at least entertain your comment until that last sentence there. As a bona-fide MAN on HN, the anecdote reads as extremely slimy to me. And it's pretty clear that women have to deal with this kind of BS constantly.
- kelukelugames 12y ago
  His phrasing definitely can be improved. But a lot of people in the reddit thread are incorrect. There is a difference between what is illegal and what is slimy. What the interviewer did is inappropriate but there is no proof that discrimination occurred. I think it's unethical to hit on co-workers, direct reports and especially interviewees, but there are two people on my team who met their spouses during an interview at previous companies. Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. The people asking her to lawyer up do not understand employment law. Unethical behavior doesn't automatically mean it's illegal. The definition for discrimination is pretty strict. Unless you can prove the interviewer has a pattern of rejecting female candidates and then asking them for dates then there is no case here. The other point I wanted to make is there are people who date their interviewers. Does that mean it's not sketchy? No. But the success stories serve as encouragement for this kind of behavior.
mikeash 12y ago
Real men do not abuse a position of power to pressure women into accepting a date.
- borski 12y ago
  Not trying to cause a stir, but where does it say he pressured her? I read it as "he asked me out on a date," not "he told me if I didn't go on a date with him he wouldn't hire me and he'd kill my firstborn." She had already not gotten the job. Not saying this is ok, but it doesn't sound like much pressure was applied.

ihsw 12y ago

* Say no. * Forward copies of emails to the company's leadership/HR department. * Keep printed copies of the emails handy in case he decides to retaliate with lawyers. * Keep your own legal counsel on speed-dial. * Move on with your life. There's not much you can do from a legal standpoint, with regards to grievance/redress. Escalating the situation through contacting his boss/HR carries a risk, even though you have the moral high-ground, but it could work in getting him punished. Or it could achieve absolutely nothing. Or he has a long history of this abusive behavior and this is the last straw that will get him ejected from the company for being a serious liability/generally unpleasant. He has your resume, and he's exhibited awful behavior -- legal counsel should definitely be at your disposal on a moments notice. Naturally, if it really interests you, you can consult a lawyer to verify whether there are any punitive measures you can apply against him. The OP hasn't indicated that the guy has harassed her per se, so I don't know if she has any legal standing regarding that.

MollyR 12y ago
This is the best advice I've seen. Also I'd like to add,if you can don't escalate to a lawsuit prematurely. A lot of companies avoid hiring a person who files lawsuits against corporations. Its unfair, but its how the real world works. HR exists to protect the company not its people. I know I mention this a lot on HN, but also read Corporate Confidential to understand how American Corporations and HR really works.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  It seems to me that informing HR, and telling him no (and why) is enough. I most certainly would not initiate a lawsuit over something like this. It was inappropriate and unprofessional; don't respond with something over the top, which is unprofessional in a different way. But I'm male, and have literally never been harassed at work over anything (not gender, age, race, religion, sexual orientation, facial hair, choice of editor... nothing), so what do I know?
  - ihsw 12y ago
    Indeed, I'm not advocating filing a lawsuit, however notifying his employer of the situation does carry risk of retaliation.

ottonomy 12y ago

Oof. The poster should forward that email to whoever else at the company can deal with it so that hopefully someone else doesn't have to deal with it in the future.

hoopism 12y ago

Regardless of whether it was done creepily or innocently it's not something I would do or tolerate. Without any context I thought this seemed like an innocent scenario (guy is not a creep)... but it doesn't matter. It's inappropriate regardless.

ditonal 12y ago

You know, I'm all about being laid back and rejecting traditional corporate culture, because you can be serious without a suit. But you still need the "be serious" part, which somehow got lost between all the ping pong tables and beer on tap. I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like negotiate compensation. I really hope that the tech scene can hold on to the fun parts of what makes it special, while getting rid of terrible things like this. But, in my opinion, culture and professionalism starts at the top, even if it's easy to go after the low-status, low-political-power programmers at the bottom. The typical company will give you sexual harassment training and fire people who do inappropriate things, but the same companies encourage their 20-somethings to get wasted at Friday happy hours and have few to no women on their board of directors or executive management positions, and that culture of men-in-charge inevitably trickles down.

baddox 12y ago
> I actually think a big chunk of the industry encourages unprofessionalism, because professionals do really obnoxious things like negotiate compensation. I don't approve of this situation, but I also don't buy your general argument (especially for things like ping pong tables and beer on tap). You seem to be referring to "professionalism" as some concrete normative standard, but in reality, what is considered "professionalism" changes over time and differs between people, industries, and geographic regions at any given time.
- ditonal 12y ago
  You are misunderstanding my point. I am fine with ping-pong tables and beer on tap, if they come with professionalism, where professionalism includes things like not sexually harassing women. Alcohol especially needs to be handled with care, and encouraging employees to have more than one drink is downright irresponsible. My point was that there is a contingent of business-types whose gameplan is to use the fun stuff as an excuse to drop professionalism, as in, why should you ask for a raise when you're having so much fun here? It's one big party! The reason I say this is that I was recently job interviewing and I had one company that acted like this, and even brought me into a Friday happy hour as part of the interview process, where a bunch of young males were playing beer pong. First of all, how is that not a hostile environment for a woman? Secondly, I didn't want to drink, so was I supposed to look like I was no fun or bend my principles? Finally, when I complained to the recruiter, I was told they _only_ did that for engineers, and it was clear to me that it was a general strategy of indoctrination to avoid paying market rate, because it was all fun and games until we started talking compensation. And the company I most recently worked with before was more or less the same, the startup industry is filled with companies exactly like this. We have a culture of brogrammers because the VCs create it to avoid paying engineers. And if you think programmers are all men, take a look at the VC and senior management gender diversity sometime.

beenpoor 12y ago

I will go out on my limb here. It was a mistake on his part. See if you are willing to let him go with a caution. I know everyone is crying for blood and it is justified. Going to HR will likely ruin his resume for life (possibly).

HaloZero 12y ago
I really don't imagine that this will ruin him for life, but HR/CEO should be notified of his behavior in order to at the very least reprimand him. I'm not saying he should be fired but professionalism is required at workplace and this is an abuse of power.
archagon 12y ago
I think this perspective is at least worth discussing. On the other hand, a) He's in his 30's and should know better. b) He has no rapport with OP and knows basically nothing about her. c) This is a pattern of behavior that women in the industry have to deal with all the time, not just an isolated incident. (See the comments in the thread.) When I look at issues like this as a guy, I have to remind myself that "feeling sorry for the perpetrator" is in fact one of the many anti-patterns that leads to this kind of hostile environment in the first place. So I cannot judge the victim for whatever decision she makes. Were I in her shoes, I would probably send the guy a harshly-worded e-mail instead of escalating to HR. I don't like the idea of someone losing their job over a really dumb decision they made in the heat of the moment. But I am not a woman and I haven't had to go through life getting worn down by dozens of incidents like this one, so my perspective here is kind of meaningless.
eli 12y ago
HR exists for addressing problems like this. You absolutely should talk to them. I don't think it will "ruin his life" but whatever action is taken (if any) is ultimately up to his bosses. This is unacceptable behavior and if no one ever says anything about it, there's no reason to think it won't continue.
- beenpoor 12y ago
  After some thought, I agree HR should be involved to caution him. As for ruining his life, it feels like a stretch - but imagine, he is publicly outed (with this much attention, it's possible). People have their pitchforks out - so I know this viewpoint will be downvoted. But it is best if she brings this issue with HR and deal with it internally with the company.

Archio 12y ago

What the fuck? How does this shit happen? How on earth does someone, male or female, get into such a state that they think it is appropriate to do something like this in a professional setting? Can someone explain to me how this works? I'm male in a male-dominated industry, and of course I don't give a damn what people look like and treat everyone with respect. The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male friends (or female friends) would be capable of doing something like this. Where the hell do these people come from, and how can this be stopped? I hate it when shit like this happens because I worry people will associate this behavior with me.

jerf 12y ago
Go read your local court blotter or something. You would apparently be surprised what actually exists in the world. We don't have laws against this sort of thing because nobody ever does them. We more have laws against this sort of thing because it's perfectly "natural" (as in "the way nature has made us", not "good"). "Where the hell do these people come from, and how can this be stopped?" Everywhere, and it can't be stopped. Only slowed down, and reparations made and justice done after-the-fact, but stopping it is not on the table. Which is part of why getting too emotional in one instance isn't all that helpful... you literally wouldn't have time to hear about every single problem of this caliber that occurs somewhere in the world because you literally can not take the information in that quickly.
jpk 12y ago
That's the thing. He already knows this is inappropriate, but then did it anyway. Which is arguably worse.
vinceguidry 12y ago
> The problem is, I don't believe a single one of my male friends (or female friends) would be capable of doing something like this. I know guys who I wouldn't be surprised to see do something like this, mostly from the bar I go to. I have female friends who know lots of guys who would stoop to this. They would not necessarily believe there's a lot wrong with it, and might welcome the advance if they liked the way he looked or acted. This guy did it sight unseen though, I can't see any of my friends going for that. There's a pervasive element in society of success in dating requiring playing a numbers game, on both sides of the gender fence. My female friends all expect me to be asking out any girl I think is attractive. Being asked out is something that just happens all the time for them, they just seem to get used to it. The context matters mostly as a signal for what it's going to be like to date them. An attractive female coworker of mine told me about how a lawyer who hires her on the side to help him with document stuff asked her to dinner on a business pretext and at that dinner was feeling her out for willingness to date him. I was surprised that she accepted his invitation and didn't slam him for being a creep for his behavior. She thought it was weird but didn't have a huge reaction or anything, she told me like one might talk about any weird thing that happens to you in the course of a day. I have one IRL female friend who was a feminist and would definitely see something wrong with this behavior. She's also extremely attractive and describes getting hit on constantly. She definitely does not have a neutral reaction to it. But she also relayed her fear to me that she'll never be able to get married because feminism.

AdmiralAsshat 12y ago

Wasn't there some recent ruling that indicated interns and the like are not protected from sexual harassment because they're not technically employees? I feel like a prospective interviewee would fall under that same umbrella, and hence a legal case would ultimately go nowhere. Not to mention that, as has previously been mentioned on HN, HR is designed to protect the company from you, not the other way around. I'd bypass the legal system altogether (which increasingly seems designed to protect this kind of atrocious behavior) and go straight to the media with it. Public shaming unfortunately seems to be the only way to combat this.

timdaub 12y ago

Since OP mentioned that the company in question is a startup which implies a fair chance that they not yet have a HR department or that even some of the founders took part in this sexist behavior, IMHO OP should not hesitate to call out names (only the company's) as it seems it is the only way to punish this behavior.

jarin 12y ago

Dating within the tech industry is tough, especially when most of the people you meet are also in tech, but you also don't want to contribute to the problem of creating an environment where women feel like they're constantly being evaluated not only for their skills but also as potential partners. As a guy, it's probably best to just put the idea out of your mind altogether unless specifically approached. Meeting romantic partners at work is extremely common in other industries, but most of them don't have the same gender imbalance problems that we do in STEM fields. I think it probably sucks for everyone that dating in the tech industry is such a tricky thing, but I think that's probably just a sacrifice we're going to have to make until we've got a better culture and gender balance. It's definitely not ok to take advantage of the power relationship between interviewer and interviewee in any case.

xtrumanx 12y ago
> ...unless specifically approached. I don't even think that's a good idea. I don't live in the U.S. or in the western world for that matter but from my reading of all issues in the tech industry from HN it seems to me the best approach is to pretend your a eunuch at work or around your colleagues no matter the location.
- jarin 12y ago
  Yeah, that's definitely a tricky subject without a clear cut answer. My personal opinion though is that denying agency to a woman (i.e. her right to choose to ask someone out if she wants to) is just as bad, though. It's like saying that women aren't capable of making their own decisions about it. I mean, the whole end goal of this thing is not to dehumanize everyone and turn us all into code-writing, celibate, emotionless Vulcans, but to create a welcoming environment where currently under-represented groups have the same opportunities and respect as everyone else.
- BadassFractal 12y ago
  I concur. I don't see how there's a way for genders to coexist in the same work space without leaving sexuality completely out the door. Too many opportunities for awkwardness, misunderstanding, legal liability, public shaming, Internet outrage. It's not worth it. Work spaces must be 100% asexual, I don't see how else you'd accomplish this. Open to suggestions.

uiuixqqxxq 12y ago

Something similar happened to me as well. Colleague invited me on date, but there was no date, just virus removal from from Windows. I reported that person to HR, but they refused to fire her.

woof 12y ago

I don't see the drama, but then again I'm a guy (40+). If he just waited a few weeks with that second mail, we could hardly fault him for being unprofessional could we? I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the "more experience" part sounds plausible). And if she was a really interesting candidate, another tech screen or phone interview would be natural. I'd tell any friend to say "thanks, but no thanks" and move on. (If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then)

genofon 12y ago
>I don't believe she would have gotten then job with another interviewer (the "more experience" part sounds plausible). please don't speculate, as she said if they were looking for "more experience" why would he interviewed her in the first place? He also admitted that her cv was interesting >(If he's that creepy, he'd get her the job and hit on her then) hitting on a co-worker is much more complicated than hitting on someone outside the company. that's the point. He is clearly abusing his position of power, it's not ethical and probably also against the company's policy.
- ddoolin 12y ago
  You're speculating in the same breath with which you say not to speculate. We don't know why they interviewed her, and frankly we interview people fairly often that don't have the requisite experience on paper because we know it often has little to do with what's on the paper, a lesson HN readers are VERY familiar with (the whole "meritocracy" thing).
  - genofon 12y ago
    based on the information we have he didn't do anything to test her experience.
  - genofon 12y ago
    based on the information we have he didn't do anything to test her experience.
- 12y ago

BadassFractal 12y ago

I'd also add it's possible some of these men are desperate for a date, given how hard it to get one in some areas of the country that are heavy in tech. He knows he shouldn't, but he's desperate.

deleted 12y ago
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kelukelugames 12y ago
This is why gender imbalance is bad for everyone involved. Not saying there should be more women in tech so men can find dates. The point is being around more women at work will help people learn what is socially appropriate.

deleted 12y ago

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MangoDiesel 12y ago

Unfortunately, I think the best way (safest) to handle this as someone new out of school without a network is to ignore it and move on to other potential opportunities. Most likely, this is an issue isolated to this one employee, who should have his position of responsibility in the hiring process stripped, written up/ demotion, whatever tools are available to the company to _strongly_ reprimand him. There is a chance that this person (who has already shown to be outrageously unprofessional) would retaliate. He has your resume which likely significant personal information such as cell phone and address. If you had a network, the best course of action would be to find someone you trust who is connected to the CEO. Any CEO who is not breeding a malignant culture would be absolutely appalled by this employee's actions. The CEO is fortunate to have a female grad student from a top 3 school applying to work at his/her company. Diversity is incredibly valuable to teams, and hi-jacking the hiring process into a personal dating workflow displays such egregiously bad judgement I would probably be personally offended as the CEO to the point of firing the person.

pyrocat 12y ago
Ignoring the problem is how we got into this situation in the first place.

crimsonalucard 12y ago

If the interviewee found him attractive would this be an issue for her? I doubt it. Just say no and move on, don't do anything to aggravate the issue.

x0ra 12y ago
Because in today's USA, dating should be done in front of lawyers...
scott_s 12y ago
Please don't propagate the myth that women only object to inappropriate behavior from people they are not attracted to.
- crimsonalucard 12y ago
  I'm propagating no such thing. I'm saying the behavior would no longer be considered inappropriate if there was mutual attraction. I sincerely believe this will still be the case even if the genders are flipped.
  - scott_s 12y ago
    And I'm saying that saying such is propagating that myth.

pfortuny 12y ago

Just say NO.

psykovsky 12y ago

This sounds like feminist PR bullshit to me. The timing of it makes me suspicious that it has something to do with that annoying ex-googler chick... But what do I know, right? EDIT: details added.

ocdtrekkie 12y ago

I would report it to their superior, or the CEO if they are the head of HR. Particularly since it sounds like he may not have provided you a fair interview. Equality doesn't happen if people are silent about injustices.

x0ra 12y ago

So what ? Should men just refrain themselves if they find a cute girl ? The US society has become really low (though, not as much as Japan). Why is this wrong when women (say, Zoe Quinn), not only uses their pussy to promote themselves, but are defended by every feminazi ? ...

mdnormy 12y ago

The problem with deducting from one side of a story is you can't reach a definitive conclusion. For example if you read the first 4 paragraph, that is 'the essence' of most interviews. Assuming it is, what the interviewer is doing after, are inappropriate but "thanks, but no thanks" would be adequate response in my opinion. People make dumb mistakes some time. But if OP highly suspected that the interviewer does not intend to do proper interview from the beginning and only interested to her personally, reporting to HR is the only way to go.

tzs 12y ago

So what are the rules for contacting someone you once interviewed in order to suggest social interaction? NOTE: I said "social interaction" rather than "a date" because I'm asking about more general situations. For instance, suppose you interview someone, and (unlike the guy in this incident) are not using the interview to try to find someone to date. You stick to questions specific to the job, plus more general questions about the things on their resume, including open source projects they say they contributed to. You find them interesting and witty and enjoyed talking with them, but there is someone better qualified who gets the job. Six months later, you are planning to attend a one day conference on an open source project you contribute to. It's a 3 hour drive to the conference. You don't know anyone in your area who works on that project to ask along to make the drive more interesting. Then you remember the person you interviewed six months earlier is also a contributor to the project. Is it acceptable to contact them and tell them you are driving to the conference and would like to find someone to come along to make the ride more social, and asking if they would like to be that person?

Borogove 12y ago
Sure, why not? You're not in a professional relationship. You aren't in a position to influence a hiring decision. You're two humans with common interests.
tach4n 12y ago
There's not gonna be some neat little checklist for you, you have to just develop the ability to reason about social dynamics. > Is it acceptable to contact them and tell them you are driving to the conference and would like to find someone to come along to make the ride more social, and asking if they would like to be that person? Based on exactly how your question is worded, no. I think most people would feel uncomfortable with a relative stranger reaching out to them specifically and asking to carpool. You have to consider the dynamics of the situation too: What are the ages of the people involved? What are the genders? What are their roles in the community, etc. These factors can make it anything from a friendly, but still not terribly appropriate request to downright creepy and possibly exploitative. You brought up time, which is another dynamic to consider as well. I'm sure if we thought hard, we could come up with some nice rule of thumb like "if you're going to do this at all, it should be at least X weeks/months/etc later" - but really it's more about whether everyone can actually move on and what the new social dynamics are. If by this point the other party is well established in another company, not looking for a job, etc - it's much easier to put the whole interview behind everyone involved. If you're both contributors to a project, why have you not interacted already? Have you been reading their social cues? Some people are very open to meeting new people. If you interview someone and you genuinely find them interesting - see if they have a blog or twitter or something. See how they interact with people there. After considering the other factors, IF you decide to engage them, do it some place they are obviously comfortable and giving off cues that they want to interact. Presumably there is some mailing list or discussion area for the project, see if they are open to interacting there. You also need to be really honest and examine your own motivations and make sure you act accordingly and are not deceptive about it either to yourself or others. If you're really interested in just making the trip less lonely, why not put out a general call? "Hey I'm headed to X conference, anyone want to carpool?" You might get some replies from people you're not interested in riding with for whatever reason, in which case you'll just have to deal with it in an appropriate way. Either tolerate them, or come up with some excuse to exclude that person politely ("oh, I think all the spots are accounted for, but I'll keep you in mind"). You'll have to accept that in a lot of cases, the fact that you had a failed business relationship with a person will preclude you having a personal relationship with them.

therebase 12y ago

my 2 cents: * Say no to date in person * Decline the job for reasons that you explain to the HR department: He asked you out on a date in a professional setting (I must inform you .... I regret ... best regards). Writing this in a friendly form (the HR person receiving this mail has not asked you for a date). This person will be up in arms for you. You will receive a very very friendly call from someone up the foodchain. See, it happened in person .. so you cant prove shit. But if you are a boss. * Do not send the mail CC to the interviewer * Close the mail friendly with best regards * Document what you can. I guess the interviewer did not do this in written form. * Go on and strike this company off the list of companies that you aspire to work for. Do not believe this was an single incident. When hiring people everything should be extra shiny (normally you discover problems after starting). So with 15 years experience in the field: that shop is crap! One thing: The tech job market is a sellers market. More people want to hire than there are able engineers. You are not the one asking for something only. The company is as well. A work relationship must be on the basis of a mutual understanding what is ok and what not. Seems you have a difference here. Good luck for the job hunt. The good companies are out there (and many people who can show you the way for harassment free work experiences).

khug 12y ago

As far as I can tell, the offence here is that he used privileged information (contact details from her job application) to contact her about a personal matter (the date). Once her application was rejected there ceased to be a meaningful power relationship. Some people seem to be implying that there remains a professional power relationship since she may choose to apply at the company in the future, but I doubt that has any practical or legal teeth. The same could be true of all her potential future employers OR her future employees, vendors, customers, etc... So what he did was creepy and unprofessional, yes. But let's understand why and to exactly what degree before deciding what the appropriate response should be. Personally, I would contact the HR department and inform them that I didn't appreciate company employees using the contact details from my application to solicit me for a date.