7 ms·

As many have noted, this does need to stop but it won't. And the problem lies squarely with you and me. Try this experiment: Ask a group of 5-10 people aroun

by Zelphyr 12y ago

As many have noted, this does need to stop but it won't. And the problem lies squarely with you and me. Try this experiment: Ask a group of 5-10 people around you to raise their hands if they've been pissed off at any branch or level of their government. Then ask them to keep their hands up if they've contacted their representatives about that issue. Finally, ask them if the method of contact they used was the phone or written (not email) letter. I'll bet dollars to donuts that not a single hand will be in the air. You and I are the problem because we don't hold our representatives accountable. We really only pay attention (and marginal attention at that) during election time by buying into the campaign bullshit. At best we sign an online petition but the politicians barely care about that. They know that its easy even for the most apathetic to click a button. Sure, in cases like net neutrality it can get their attention but I'll submit that what really got their attention was the number of phone calls they were getting. Yes, I specifically am to blame because I haven't called or written my representatives. That's going to stop. We need to be on the horn with these people frequently. Weekly. When they're in town we need to be in their faces. They said, "If you see something, say something." Well, I see corruption and I'm going to point right at them and tell them. Will you join me? EDIT: I should add that we need to be contacting them when we approve of the work they're doing. They need data. Most of the feedback they receive is negative (and for good reason) but without positive feedback they're left searching and unfortunately the guys who claim to have the answers are the lobbyists. But remember, there are around 15,000 lobbyists in Washington D.C. but 131,144,000 voters voted in the 2012 Presidential election. I like our chances, if only we get involved.

ripb 12y ago
>Will you join me? I wonder how many people are genuinely afraid of raising their own profile in such a way. I'm not American, but I would certainly be partaking in any political action against the actions being discussed here. Although as it is, I'm very hesitant to even level criticism at the CIA on HN. I'm by no means an important person, but from what we've learned I don't even want to register on the radar of these entities.
- Zelphyr 12y ago
  Well, look at it this way; the politicians raise money so they can campaign to us, the citizens. So obviously our voice still matters. We're just not using it. Thankfully, for the most part, its not dangerous (yet) to exercise our right to contact our representatives.
- mindcrime 12y ago
  Although as it is, I'm very hesitant to even level criticism at the CIA on HN. I'm by no means an important person, but from what we've learned I don't even want to register on the radar of these entities. I understand where you're coming from, and clearly it's an individual choice, based on one's judgment of risk vs. reward. But let me add that when people choose that position, it just makes it that much easier for these guys to keep doing what they're doing, and getting away with it. FWIW, I routinely criticize the CIA, NSA, etc. here, on Twitter, on Facebook, etc., using hashtags like #fuckthecia, #fuckthensa, etc. and nothing bad has happened to me as a result.
  - bediger4000 12y ago
    nothing bad has happened to me as a result How can you be certain? How many really successful job interviews have you had since you started your one-person campaign, where the hiring company inexplicably dropped you like a hot potato? Do you regularly check your credit rating to see if weird stuff is showing up? Have your bicycle tires quit holding pressure? I ask the last question because East Germany's Stasi did that sort of thing (https://books.google.com/books?id=GlbAmn_cajYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=stasi+deflate+bicycle+tires&source=bl&ots=cejL_NmSWp&sig=zUmIgpsXkx4TFn0fJK--sAM66-E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IUf_VKLoIIP7ggTTxoHgAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stasi%20deflate%20bicycle%20tires&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=GlbAmn_cajYC&pg=PA160&lpg=...). The USA "national security" establishment/"intelligence community" gets unbelievable amounts of money, that they must spend. Why not make and use "smell chairs" or randomly screw with people that openly oppose the deep state?
    - mindcrime 12y ago
      How can you be certain? How many really successful job interviews have you had since you started your one-person campaign, where the hiring company inexplicably dropped you like a hot potato? Do you regularly check your credit rating to see if weird stuff is showing up? Have your bicycle tires quit holding pressure? Well, that's a fair point, so maybe I should say "nothing overt and noticeable has happened as a result." Beyond that, I could speculate about really subtle stuff, but that strikes me as a sure road to a level of paranoia that I don't want to engage in.
olifante 12y ago
It is abundantly clear that the deep state will not accept losing these tools. Even if by some miracle someone was elected with a strong mandate to eliminate privacy abuses, the deep state would lie and obfuscate as much as needed to maintain and expand its total surveillance capabilities. We have to accept that the cat is not going back into the box, and that we now need to focus on finding adequate defenses, both technical and social.
jkestner 12y ago
Our outrage tanks are being emptied by Internet arguments. Just as Apple's got both ResearchKit and Apple Pay on soda machines, perhaps it could create ActivismKit to balance out the distractions they (and every smartphone maker) enable.
tomjen3 12y ago
I wish I could believe that letter writing would actually make a difference, but at this point you need either an army or billions of dollars to make them listen.
- Zelphyr 12y ago
  Why do you think they're spending all their time raising money? So they can campaign to YOU! Obviously it can make a difference if people get involved. Look; Its going to be hard. Its going to take a long time. So? Isn't it worth it?
mmcru 12y ago
>Finally, ask them if the method of contact they used was the phone or written (not email) letter. why should we have to use the phone, or a paper letter, when email is as good, or even better?
- Zelphyr 12y ago
  Because email is almost too easy. When you take the time to call or write them a letter you're letting them know that you're serious.
xnull6guest 12y ago
Look at the grassroots, bipartisan, loud and successful cry from the public not to enter Syria. How many months did that work? It is true that the system must represent the people. If and when it does not - whose fault is it? It can not be the people. We don't design people. We design a system to conform to the people, to communicate with them and to represent them.
- Zelphyr 12y ago
  Its our fault because we put those politicians in power. Its our fault because we on the whole would rather watch sports, reality tv, play games, etc... than get involved in the running of our country. And it doesn't even take much. Can you really not spare a 5 minutes once a week to call your representatives? Think about if more people did this. Suddenly those lobbyists voices would get a lot less powerful.
  - xnull6guest 12y ago
    Are not the representatives we get to choose from filtered before we can select them? Aren't the representatives beholden to those who can get them the money to run before we even get to hear that they are running? Aren't the (only two) political parties in consensus on issues in the high finance, insider trading, and foreign investment that bring their kin high rewards and imperialist neo-colonial empire building that makes this growth possible? Yes we can bother these people about allowing gay people to marry (or not, or whatever) but when can we ask them not to cause revolutions around the world (like now in Venezuela) and then intervene with bombs and 'bring Capitalistic freedom' by fixing American private investment in their resources? You can make noise about some things, but they either will not last (re Syria) or they will not listen. Other strategic objectives, international agreements and private investment come first. How are you going to immediately and suddenly alter 300 million people to spend multiple hours a week to sift through the reams of propaganda and PR (whose voices rise above political realities) to come to independent and critical political and social analysis? That's a huge lifestyle change - we can't even get 300 million people to turn off the lights when they exit rooms to save electricity. If people on the whole want to enjoy hobbies, entertainment, family and work instead of being full time politicians and investigative reporters can we snub them for that? We need a system that can work with people who are busy living their (plebeian) lives but is still able to represent their interests. Someone might say that this isn't possible - but then are they not saying that representative democracy is not possible?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by Zelphyr 12y ago

ripb 12y ago

>Will you join me? I wonder how many people are genuinely afraid of raising their own profile in such a way. I'm not American, but I would certainly be partaking in any political action against the actions being discussed here. Although as it is, I'm very hesitant to even level criticism at the CIA on HN. I'm by no means an important person, but from what we've learned I don't even want to register on the radar of these entities.

Zelphyr 12y ago
Well, look at it this way; the politicians raise money so they can campaign to us, the citizens. So obviously our voice still matters. We're just not using it. Thankfully, for the most part, its not dangerous (yet) to exercise our right to contact our representatives.
mindcrime 12y ago
Although as it is, I'm very hesitant to even level criticism at the CIA on HN. I'm by no means an important person, but from what we've learned I don't even want to register on the radar of these entities. I understand where you're coming from, and clearly it's an individual choice, based on one's judgment of risk vs. reward. But let me add that when people choose that position, it just makes it that much easier for these guys to keep doing what they're doing, and getting away with it. FWIW, I routinely criticize the CIA, NSA, etc. here, on Twitter, on Facebook, etc., using hashtags like #fuckthecia, #fuckthensa, etc. and nothing bad has happened to me as a result.
- bediger4000 12y ago
  nothing bad has happened to me as a result How can you be certain? How many really successful job interviews have you had since you started your one-person campaign, where the hiring company inexplicably dropped you like a hot potato? Do you regularly check your credit rating to see if weird stuff is showing up? Have your bicycle tires quit holding pressure? I ask the last question because East Germany's Stasi did that sort of thing (https://books.google.com/books?id=GlbAmn_cajYC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=stasi+deflate+bicycle+tires&source=bl&ots=cejL_NmSWp&sig=zUmIgpsXkx4TFn0fJK--sAM66-E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IUf_VKLoIIP7ggTTxoHgAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=stasi%20deflate%20bicycle%20tires&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=GlbAmn_cajYC&pg=PA160&lpg=...). The USA "national security" establishment/"intelligence community" gets unbelievable amounts of money, that they must spend. Why not make and use "smell chairs" or randomly screw with people that openly oppose the deep state?
  - mindcrime 12y ago
    How can you be certain? How many really successful job interviews have you had since you started your one-person campaign, where the hiring company inexplicably dropped you like a hot potato? Do you regularly check your credit rating to see if weird stuff is showing up? Have your bicycle tires quit holding pressure? Well, that's a fair point, so maybe I should say "nothing overt and noticeable has happened as a result." Beyond that, I could speculate about really subtle stuff, but that strikes me as a sure road to a level of paranoia that I don't want to engage in.

olifante 12y ago

It is abundantly clear that the deep state will not accept losing these tools. Even if by some miracle someone was elected with a strong mandate to eliminate privacy abuses, the deep state would lie and obfuscate as much as needed to maintain and expand its total surveillance capabilities. We have to accept that the cat is not going back into the box, and that we now need to focus on finding adequate defenses, both technical and social.

jkestner 12y ago

Our outrage tanks are being emptied by Internet arguments. Just as Apple's got both ResearchKit and Apple Pay on soda machines, perhaps it could create ActivismKit to balance out the distractions they (and every smartphone maker) enable.

tomjen3 12y ago

I wish I could believe that letter writing would actually make a difference, but at this point you need either an army or billions of dollars to make them listen.

Zelphyr 12y ago
Why do you think they're spending all their time raising money? So they can campaign to YOU! Obviously it can make a difference if people get involved. Look; Its going to be hard. Its going to take a long time. So? Isn't it worth it?

mmcru 12y ago

>Finally, ask them if the method of contact they used was the phone or written (not email) letter. why should we have to use the phone, or a paper letter, when email is as good, or even better?

Zelphyr 12y ago
Because email is almost too easy. When you take the time to call or write them a letter you're letting them know that you're serious.

xnull6guest 12y ago

Look at the grassroots, bipartisan, loud and successful cry from the public not to enter Syria. How many months did that work? It is true that the system must represent the people. If and when it does not - whose fault is it? It can not be the people. We don't design people. We design a system to conform to the people, to communicate with them and to represent them.

Zelphyr 12y ago
Its our fault because we put those politicians in power. Its our fault because we on the whole would rather watch sports, reality tv, play games, etc... than get involved in the running of our country. And it doesn't even take much. Can you really not spare a 5 minutes once a week to call your representatives? Think about if more people did this. Suddenly those lobbyists voices would get a lot less powerful.
- xnull6guest 12y ago
  Are not the representatives we get to choose from filtered before we can select them? Aren't the representatives beholden to those who can get them the money to run before we even get to hear that they are running? Aren't the (only two) political parties in consensus on issues in the high finance, insider trading, and foreign investment that bring their kin high rewards and imperialist neo-colonial empire building that makes this growth possible? Yes we can bother these people about allowing gay people to marry (or not, or whatever) but when can we ask them not to cause revolutions around the world (like now in Venezuela) and then intervene with bombs and 'bring Capitalistic freedom' by fixing American private investment in their resources? You can make noise about some things, but they either will not last (re Syria) or they will not listen. Other strategic objectives, international agreements and private investment come first. How are you going to immediately and suddenly alter 300 million people to spend multiple hours a week to sift through the reams of propaganda and PR (whose voices rise above political realities) to come to independent and critical political and social analysis? That's a huge lifestyle change - we can't even get 300 million people to turn off the lights when they exit rooms to save electricity. If people on the whole want to enjoy hobbies, entertainment, family and work instead of being full time politicians and investigative reporters can we snub them for that? We need a system that can work with people who are busy living their (plebeian) lives but is still able to represent their interests. Someone might say that this isn't possible - but then are they not saying that representative democracy is not possible?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]