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The main problem in the US is that we are no longer getting our money's worth from the elites. The deal has always been...you run things and get the most rewar

The main problem in the US is that we are no longer getting our money's worth from the elites. The deal has always been...you run things and get the most rewards, but everyone does better over time. They need to uphold their side of the bargain.

rebootthesystem 12y ago
The deal? What deal? What side of what bargain? Sorry, this point of view is delusional at best.
- sudioStudio64 12y ago
  The US has always been a society run by elites. First it was the landed gentry. Since then it has been a political and financial elite. Keeping in mind that times when they were actually fulfilling their role of stewarding the country well...it wasn't done in a way that was good for everyone...but it was a type of social compact where the elites were granted a great deal of autonomy in running the country and everyone's situations improved. That being said, since the late seventies they have been accumulating wealth at an ever increasing rate and not raising the wages of their employees, investing in education of their employees children, or investing in infrastructure. Instead of raising wages as profits rose they started offering cheap credit. At some point that trend has to be reversed and the people that run this place will have to care about the people that live in it. There's an upper boundary on how much suffering people are willing to put up with. Also, I love how you think I'm delusional even though you didn't seem to understand what I was saying. I'm really tempted to be rude to you. Seriously. But I'm trying to tone down my online responses to match what I would say in real life. People need to remember that in the end they are speaking to another person.
  - rebootthesystem 12y ago
    No, no. What is delusional (and there might be a better word but I'll stick to that one for now) is proposing or promulgating the idea that there was or is a "deal". No such thing. Rich people never got together to work out a "deal" or be granted a "deal". That is purely a fabrication. And mind you, I am not attacking you but rather the ideology that you and others have subscribed to. It's utter nonsense. Sorry. Feel free to be rude if you need to get it out of your system. The beauty of reality is that it doesn't change based on emotion, yelling or screaming. A circle is still a circle. My position is factually correct and shooting the messenger will not change reality. I could literally stop right now, tell you "you are right; we are run by a bunch of evil elites" and that would not change the facts of the matter. A circle, is still a circle. "when they were actually fulfilling their role of stewarding the country" Again, this is delusional. What role? Who gave them that role? Did they accept that role? Sorry brother, your choice of words might just be a bit misguided. Again, you are not delusional, the ideas you are putting forth through your choice of words are. Maybe this ideology would like them to have had this role (or have it now). Did they sign-up for it at some secret meeting? "a type of social compact where the elites were granted a great deal of autonomy in running the country" One more time. What grant? Who granted it? Was there a contract? Did all the "elites" from east to west coast circulate a secret telegram agreeing to some kind of a deal in order to be granted privileges? And, did these contracts get ratified on a yearly basis for over 200 years in order to reach today's elite? Please think. You are probably repeating something you were taught. And, if it was taught by a liberal leaning institution it is likely that they also told you that the US is evil and we all deserve to die. It's OK to listen to all points of view. That's how we learn. What isn't OK is to do so and not use critical thinking to evaluate the validity of what is being proposed. "and the people that run this place will have to care about the people that live in it." We agree on that one 100%. However, it isn't the elites, it's the hordes of crooked and incompetent politicians who are destroying this nation from the inside out. And the hordes of ignorant voters who let them get away with it. Their only motivation is to stay in office and enjoy the ride on the taxpayer's back. They don't care about you, me or our children. That's the problem. "accumulating wealth at an ever increasing rate and not raising the wages of their employees" One thing has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. Executive compensation and employee wages are controlled by different variables and different market forces. Nobody is going to pay a welder $100 per hour because it would be a violation of fiduciary responsibility to do so when the market does not support such a wage due to either local forces or the fact that in a global economy you can get a welder in China (or wherever) for $5 per hour. The executives running that company are paid based on the performance of the enterprise, investor or stockholder returns, etc. Different metrics. It's like proposing that you should pay your gardener twice as much as prevailing market rates because you got a new job and your salary doubled. And, BTW, not to be an evil elite, you ought to also call your cable company and ask them to charge you twice as much. And your electricity rate should be twice as much. In fact, you should pay twice as much for everything or you are evil. Why? Because it isn't fair that you are accumulating more wealth now and the employees who service you directly or indirection won't see their salaries improved. Of course this is a flawed and ridiculous exampled but it does illustrate the point about the ends of the scale not being drive by the same variables. Making such a connection is nothing short of nonsense. Any entrepreneur knows this. If you are running a business, large or small, one of your goals is to not pay more than the lowest possible market rate for anything you need. Why? Because your customers will get on Amazon and look to pay the lowest possible price for the widget you and a hundred other manufacturers make. And so, it's a closed feedback loop where you, the entrepreneur or executive, are controlled by a range of market variables in your decision making. You simply can't pay your welders twice as much because sales improved. That is not how the real world works. Many years ago Apple was nearly out of business. Today they are one of the richest (if not the richest) companies in the world. Was Steve Jobs evil elite for not doubling or tripling his programmer's wages as the company skyrocketed and he got filthy rich? No. Of course not. Nobody would propose that when it comes to Steve Jobs but most of the same people would crucify executives running companies like GE, Ford, GM and others under much lesser growth scenarios. This is due to three things: 1- Ignorance of the business process; 2- Academic indoctrination; 3- Attacking the "elites" as a tool for political alignment and gains. I could go on but I'll stop here. All I ask is that you try to reason through some of what you are saying. Show me ONE, just ONE country run by poor people. And, if you find one, show me the degree of economic, educational, industrial, scientific, health and standard-of-living success they've had. Now compare it to any other society where, yes, if you have financial resources you can move in circles often denied to the masses. Not under some "grant", "deal" or "plan" but simply because that's the way it works. Obama does not invite you or me to the White House. He invites actors, singers, entertainers, industry leaders and political heavy-weights. Why? Because he is par of the "elite" now and that's the way it works. Yes, there's a side of society most of us will never see or experience. It's the people buying $250K cars when we might struggle buying a $250K house. Get over it. That does not make them evil and it does not create a secret society of evil-doers under some equally secret pact to act with the goal to oppress the little guy. That, my friend, is delusional. Going back to the grind brother...
    - sudioStudio64 12y ago
      By elites, I meant politicians and wealthy people. You seem really invested in the idea that there isn't a class aspect to our situation. I never said elites were evil. I said that they were the elites. Simply, they were the people that were running things and have ran things...whether they inherited their position or worked their way into it. It was an implicit social contract. I never said or implied that people got together in a smoky room. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your either a conservative or a libertarian with the smug way that you are telling me "how the world works". If you look at rising wages and corporate profits...they both rose at roughly the same rate until the advent of cheap credit lines in the mid to late seventies. At that point, business stopped giving larger shares of the profits to employees and started loaning it to them. By that I mean businesses banked the profits, didn't issue raises in the same way, and then the banks made credit cards available with the surplus deposits to people that, until then, didn't have them. I don't know how you could look at the divergence of profits and wages around '75 in any other way. It's obviously a better situation from a financial standpoint if you are running a business or are an "entrepreneur", but it had deleterious effects as well. I never implied this was evil. I don't really use the word "evil" a lot in writing or language. It smacks of magical thinking. I think that most of this stuff is largely amoral. So, lets see. You've called me delusional. You've essentially made my argument out to be some laughable conspiracy theory...while not really rebutting what I actually said. You've insinuated that somehow I don't love my country because I'm an unthinking liberal idiot? You've lectured me on business. You're kind of a dick. How bout you just leave me alone?

rebootthesystem 12y ago

The deal? What deal? What side of what bargain? Sorry, this point of view is delusional at best.

sudioStudio64 12y ago
The US has always been a society run by elites. First it was the landed gentry. Since then it has been a political and financial elite. Keeping in mind that times when they were actually fulfilling their role of stewarding the country well...it wasn't done in a way that was good for everyone...but it was a type of social compact where the elites were granted a great deal of autonomy in running the country and everyone's situations improved. That being said, since the late seventies they have been accumulating wealth at an ever increasing rate and not raising the wages of their employees, investing in education of their employees children, or investing in infrastructure. Instead of raising wages as profits rose they started offering cheap credit. At some point that trend has to be reversed and the people that run this place will have to care about the people that live in it. There's an upper boundary on how much suffering people are willing to put up with. Also, I love how you think I'm delusional even though you didn't seem to understand what I was saying. I'm really tempted to be rude to you. Seriously. But I'm trying to tone down my online responses to match what I would say in real life. People need to remember that in the end they are speaking to another person.
- rebootthesystem 12y ago
  No, no. What is delusional (and there might be a better word but I'll stick to that one for now) is proposing or promulgating the idea that there was or is a "deal". No such thing. Rich people never got together to work out a "deal" or be granted a "deal". That is purely a fabrication. And mind you, I am not attacking you but rather the ideology that you and others have subscribed to. It's utter nonsense. Sorry. Feel free to be rude if you need to get it out of your system. The beauty of reality is that it doesn't change based on emotion, yelling or screaming. A circle is still a circle. My position is factually correct and shooting the messenger will not change reality. I could literally stop right now, tell you "you are right; we are run by a bunch of evil elites" and that would not change the facts of the matter. A circle, is still a circle. "when they were actually fulfilling their role of stewarding the country" Again, this is delusional. What role? Who gave them that role? Did they accept that role? Sorry brother, your choice of words might just be a bit misguided. Again, you are not delusional, the ideas you are putting forth through your choice of words are. Maybe this ideology would like them to have had this role (or have it now). Did they sign-up for it at some secret meeting? "a type of social compact where the elites were granted a great deal of autonomy in running the country" One more time. What grant? Who granted it? Was there a contract? Did all the "elites" from east to west coast circulate a secret telegram agreeing to some kind of a deal in order to be granted privileges? And, did these contracts get ratified on a yearly basis for over 200 years in order to reach today's elite? Please think. You are probably repeating something you were taught. And, if it was taught by a liberal leaning institution it is likely that they also told you that the US is evil and we all deserve to die. It's OK to listen to all points of view. That's how we learn. What isn't OK is to do so and not use critical thinking to evaluate the validity of what is being proposed. "and the people that run this place will have to care about the people that live in it." We agree on that one 100%. However, it isn't the elites, it's the hordes of crooked and incompetent politicians who are destroying this nation from the inside out. And the hordes of ignorant voters who let them get away with it. Their only motivation is to stay in office and enjoy the ride on the taxpayer's back. They don't care about you, me or our children. That's the problem. "accumulating wealth at an ever increasing rate and not raising the wages of their employees" One thing has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. Executive compensation and employee wages are controlled by different variables and different market forces. Nobody is going to pay a welder $100 per hour because it would be a violation of fiduciary responsibility to do so when the market does not support such a wage due to either local forces or the fact that in a global economy you can get a welder in China (or wherever) for $5 per hour. The executives running that company are paid based on the performance of the enterprise, investor or stockholder returns, etc. Different metrics. It's like proposing that you should pay your gardener twice as much as prevailing market rates because you got a new job and your salary doubled. And, BTW, not to be an evil elite, you ought to also call your cable company and ask them to charge you twice as much. And your electricity rate should be twice as much. In fact, you should pay twice as much for everything or you are evil. Why? Because it isn't fair that you are accumulating more wealth now and the employees who service you directly or indirection won't see their salaries improved. Of course this is a flawed and ridiculous exampled but it does illustrate the point about the ends of the scale not being drive by the same variables. Making such a connection is nothing short of nonsense. Any entrepreneur knows this. If you are running a business, large or small, one of your goals is to not pay more than the lowest possible market rate for anything you need. Why? Because your customers will get on Amazon and look to pay the lowest possible price for the widget you and a hundred other manufacturers make. And so, it's a closed feedback loop where you, the entrepreneur or executive, are controlled by a range of market variables in your decision making. You simply can't pay your welders twice as much because sales improved. That is not how the real world works. Many years ago Apple was nearly out of business. Today they are one of the richest (if not the richest) companies in the world. Was Steve Jobs evil elite for not doubling or tripling his programmer's wages as the company skyrocketed and he got filthy rich? No. Of course not. Nobody would propose that when it comes to Steve Jobs but most of the same people would crucify executives running companies like GE, Ford, GM and others under much lesser growth scenarios. This is due to three things: 1- Ignorance of the business process; 2- Academic indoctrination; 3- Attacking the "elites" as a tool for political alignment and gains. I could go on but I'll stop here. All I ask is that you try to reason through some of what you are saying. Show me ONE, just ONE country run by poor people. And, if you find one, show me the degree of economic, educational, industrial, scientific, health and standard-of-living success they've had. Now compare it to any other society where, yes, if you have financial resources you can move in circles often denied to the masses. Not under some "grant", "deal" or "plan" but simply because that's the way it works. Obama does not invite you or me to the White House. He invites actors, singers, entertainers, industry leaders and political heavy-weights. Why? Because he is par of the "elite" now and that's the way it works. Yes, there's a side of society most of us will never see or experience. It's the people buying $250K cars when we might struggle buying a $250K house. Get over it. That does not make them evil and it does not create a secret society of evil-doers under some equally secret pact to act with the goal to oppress the little guy. That, my friend, is delusional. Going back to the grind brother...
  - sudioStudio64 12y ago
    By elites, I meant politicians and wealthy people. You seem really invested in the idea that there isn't a class aspect to our situation. I never said elites were evil. I said that they were the elites. Simply, they were the people that were running things and have ran things...whether they inherited their position or worked their way into it. It was an implicit social contract. I never said or implied that people got together in a smoky room. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your either a conservative or a libertarian with the smug way that you are telling me "how the world works". If you look at rising wages and corporate profits...they both rose at roughly the same rate until the advent of cheap credit lines in the mid to late seventies. At that point, business stopped giving larger shares of the profits to employees and started loaning it to them. By that I mean businesses banked the profits, didn't issue raises in the same way, and then the banks made credit cards available with the surplus deposits to people that, until then, didn't have them. I don't know how you could look at the divergence of profits and wages around '75 in any other way. It's obviously a better situation from a financial standpoint if you are running a business or are an "entrepreneur", but it had deleterious effects as well. I never implied this was evil. I don't really use the word "evil" a lot in writing or language. It smacks of magical thinking. I think that most of this stuff is largely amoral. So, lets see. You've called me delusional. You've essentially made my argument out to be some laughable conspiracy theory...while not really rebutting what I actually said. You've insinuated that somehow I don't love my country because I'm an unthinking liberal idiot? You've lectured me on business. You're kind of a dick. How bout you just leave me alone?