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On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is abo

by cryptoz 12y ago

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's what's at stake here, not your personal files. Nobody cares if you can keep those safe - I want my democracy to be safe, please.

spot 12y ago
well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point.
- bhayden 12y ago
  Well as you're seeing with gay marriage bans being overturned, just because the majority want to strip the minority of their rights, they shouldn't be allowed to.
  - nickik 12y ago
    Then what you want is a republic or some system of anarchy, not a democracy.
    - xj9 12y ago
      The US is a republic.
      - nickik 12y ago
        I know that. It was a general point. In a pure democracy, 51% has complet power. Also while the US is a formal republic, it does often emulate a democracy. Based on common belives the constitution is reinterpreted, or simply ignored. This has been well documented by legal scholars such as Richard Epstein.
    - dTal 12y ago
      >some system of anarchy I don't think you quite understand the point of anarchy.
      - nickik 12y ago
        I dont think you have looked at history. Anarchy simply means no state, not no system of governance. You can still have laws and organisation. We have historical examples of milions of people living this way.
- rmxt 12y ago
  >well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point. Amazing how quick some people are to dismiss already acknowledged issues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority Amongst the anti-surveillance faction, I think that a major gripe is that the feedback loops put in place to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation are being subverted, if not in the letter of the law, then in the spirit of the law. How can elected officials have an even discussion regarding state surveillance when imperfect information abounds, and they themselves are kept in the dark from what is actually happening? That is to say nothing about the general population having a more direct say on what their government does on their behalf.
mycroft-holmes 12y ago
I also imagine that the parent's mentality is one people only have after the fact. I imagine if you hypothetically described a US government with its current surveillance powers before Snowden's leaks, people would have said they wouldn't want such a thing. They would have said it was equivalent to 1984. But after Snowden's leaks? It's simply something we have to accept.
karmacondon 12y ago
> This is not about you. This is not about your data Democracy means that your fellow citizens get a vote too. If you and those that agree with you can't craft a message that appeals to them and their day-to-day concerns, the grandparent comment will continue to be quite correct.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  Just to be clear, there was never any kind of vote on any of these spying programs. The citizens never asked for this intrusion and would likely have resisted if they had been, so it was executed in secret, and would have remained a complete secret if not for Snowden. Nobody has even tried to "craft a message that appeals to the public" until AFTER the fact, when their overreach had been exposed. A democracy generally works by citizens' issue A going to politicians B and being passed after debate to agency C which effects action D; in our situation currently the NSA has decided that it is in the best interest of itself to effect surveillance. It isn't democracy in action no matter how you attempt to spin it.
- bmelton 12y ago
  Which is why we have a Constitutionally limited system of democracy. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are inviolable, even by a majority. The suppression of the minority factions by the majority is always popular, which is exactly why the bill of rights exists.
ripb 12y ago
>This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. It's also about the future of our society, that which our children have to grow up in and deal with. I don't know how we'll be able to turn to our children in the coming decades and tell them "the government is monitoring everything you say through voice and text on your phone, every keystroke you make on your tablet or computer, every purchase you make on your phone or through your card in this inevitably cashless society, every connection you make on a connected device, everywhere your devices check in, connect to GPS or triangulate... oh and every camera you see out and about is recording you and facial recognition software is tagging it as you" with the justification for their complete lack of privacy being "there were some guys in the middle east riding around in pickup trucks with AK47s so we needed this to protect us". We're at a pivotal point now and it's very much up to us which way it goes. Our governments are supposed to serve us but instead we live in a society where we are very much ruled, where our rulers are the elite and their ruling mechanism is the complete charade of representative democracy. We'll all be dead before it gets too bad, thankfully, but our apathy will condemn our children and their descendants to a life under tyranny which we ushered in through theatrical politics, fear mongering and a bizarrely held belief of There Is No Alternative.

by cryptoz 12y ago

spot 12y ago

well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point.

bhayden 12y ago
Well as you're seeing with gay marriage bans being overturned, just because the majority want to strip the minority of their rights, they shouldn't be allowed to.
- nickik 12y ago
  Then what you want is a republic or some system of anarchy, not a democracy.
  - xj9 12y ago
    The US is a republic.
    - nickik 12y ago
      I know that. It was a general point. In a pure democracy, 51% has complet power. Also while the US is a formal republic, it does often emulate a democracy. Based on common belives the constitution is reinterpreted, or simply ignored. This has been well documented by legal scholars such as Richard Epstein.
  - dTal 12y ago
    >some system of anarchy I don't think you quite understand the point of anarchy.
    - nickik 12y ago
      I dont think you have looked at history. Anarchy simply means no state, not no system of governance. You can still have laws and organisation. We have historical examples of milions of people living this way.
rmxt 12y ago
>well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point. Amazing how quick some people are to dismiss already acknowledged issues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority Amongst the anti-surveillance faction, I think that a major gripe is that the feedback loops put in place to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation are being subverted, if not in the letter of the law, then in the spirit of the law. How can elected officials have an even discussion regarding state surveillance when imperfect information abounds, and they themselves are kept in the dark from what is actually happening? That is to say nothing about the general population having a more direct say on what their government does on their behalf.

mycroft-holmes 12y ago

I also imagine that the parent's mentality is one people only have after the fact. I imagine if you hypothetically described a US government with its current surveillance powers before Snowden's leaks, people would have said they wouldn't want such a thing. They would have said it was equivalent to 1984. But after Snowden's leaks? It's simply something we have to accept.

karmacondon 12y ago

> This is not about you. This is not about your data Democracy means that your fellow citizens get a vote too. If you and those that agree with you can't craft a message that appeals to them and their day-to-day concerns, the grandparent comment will continue to be quite correct.

cryoshon 12y ago
Just to be clear, there was never any kind of vote on any of these spying programs. The citizens never asked for this intrusion and would likely have resisted if they had been, so it was executed in secret, and would have remained a complete secret if not for Snowden. Nobody has even tried to "craft a message that appeals to the public" until AFTER the fact, when their overreach had been exposed. A democracy generally works by citizens' issue A going to politicians B and being passed after debate to agency C which effects action D; in our situation currently the NSA has decided that it is in the best interest of itself to effect surveillance. It isn't democracy in action no matter how you attempt to spin it.
bmelton 12y ago
Which is why we have a Constitutionally limited system of democracy. The rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are inviolable, even by a majority. The suppression of the minority factions by the majority is always popular, which is exactly why the bill of rights exists.

ripb 12y ago

>This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. It's also about the future of our society, that which our children have to grow up in and deal with. I don't know how we'll be able to turn to our children in the coming decades and tell them "the government is monitoring everything you say through voice and text on your phone, every keystroke you make on your tablet or computer, every purchase you make on your phone or through your card in this inevitably cashless society, every connection you make on a connected device, everywhere your devices check in, connect to GPS or triangulate... oh and every camera you see out and about is recording you and facial recognition software is tagging it as you" with the justification for their complete lack of privacy being "there were some guys in the middle east riding around in pickup trucks with AK47s so we needed this to protect us". We're at a pivotal point now and it's very much up to us which way it goes. Our governments are supposed to serve us but instead we live in a society where we are very much ruled, where our rulers are the elite and their ruling mechanism is the complete charade of representative democracy. We'll all be dead before it gets too bad, thankfully, but our apathy will condemn our children and their descendants to a life under tyranny which we ushered in through theatrical politics, fear mongering and a bizarrely held belief of There Is No Alternative.