7 ms·

Interestingly, this came to my attention via Twitter as a negative thing (https://twitter.com/hypatiadotca/status/575225661763153921 https://twitter.com/hypatia

Interestingly, this came to my attention via Twitter as a negative thing (https://twitter.com/hypatiadotca/status/575225661763153921 https://twitter.com/hypatiadotca/status/575225661763153921) - I was surprised as other than the title, it seems fairly well-intentioned and like a move in the right direction.

patzerhacker 12y ago
In regards to the Twitter link: user has fuchsia hair, of her opinion I do not care.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
pgeorgi 12y ago
That thread essentially states 'they didn't fire Linus (from his own project), so it must be a ruse.' Really?
- doppp 12y ago
  Yeah, I lost it upon reading that and the rest of her Twitter feed.
  - hluska 12y ago
    I've never met her in person, but Hypatia ripped apart a product that a company I worked for released. Not only did she disclose terrifying problems in the most responsible and respectable way possible, but she was genuinely kind and interesting to work with. Based on my real world experience as opposed to 140 character bursts, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her.
    - greenrd 12y ago
      Consider that someone might have incentives to communicate with a potential client far more nicely than to a person they dislike who probably will never be their client.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kyberias 12y ago
What the hell is wrong with these people?
Fede_V 12y ago
Wow, that seems wildly disproportionate to say the least.
hluska 12y ago
I already wrote this in reply to another comment within this thread, but I'd like to reiterate my main point. Hypatia found some serious problems with a security product that a company I worked for released. She contacted us and I got to work with her for awhile. Hypatia could have blogged and gotten rather famous because we were all over the Canadian news then. Instead, she erred on the side of extreme professionalism, came to us, and responsibly disclosed her concerns. Based on that experience, I will always argue that Hypatia is not only freakishly intelligent, but she manages to stay reasonable. Moreover, she was always interesting and fun to deal with. Knowing how good she is, I take her criticism quite seriously and I urge everyone reading this to be kind towards her.
- philh 12y ago
  What do you think her criticism is, that should be taken seriously? As far as I can tell it boils down to "The kernel people are abusive, Linus in particular is abusive, and this document doesn't change my mind about that".
  - hluska 12y ago
    When I have edited people's writing, at times I have been too scathing and when I was in my twenties, a few writers even called me abusive. When I am stressed out and faced with what I consider incompetence, I don't always do a good job of controlling what I will write. I have deeply insulted people in my time, including people who were doing things for me for free. Heck, go through my comment history. A few days ago, I was so scathing on a Show HN that I am scared I actually destroyed an entrepreneur's confidence. I'm only sharing this because I'm not particularly qualified to answer this question. Personally, I don't find LT all that bad, but that might be because at various points, I have been worse. Had situations been reversed a decade ago, I would have been much more difficult for Hypatia to deal with than she was for me. Again, she was reasonable, she was 100% correct, and she had cause to roast me and the company I worked for over the coals. Despite this, she was kind and helpful. Heck, my boss yelled at me every time she emailed me, yet I have enjoyed and learned from every single interaction I have ever had with her. In light of how she behaved in contrast with how I would have, I trust that she is better qualified to make statements like this. Not only is she more talented than I am, but she is far better at communicating through difficult times than I am. It is unfortunate that Twitter confines you to 140 character bursts because 140 does not give much space to be constructive. I hope we get to hear how Hypatia would change that document because personally, I would learn from that.
xtrumanx 12y ago
I think she misinterpreted the Code of Conflict as she also tweeted: > Am I alone in reading the second para of [the Code of Conflict] … as deeply fucked up? YOUR FEELINGS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. Wat. The second paragraph begins with: > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. She seems to have understood it to mean it is unacceptable that you should feel uncomfortable and your feelings are unacceptable. I interpreted that is unacceptable that anyone should be made to feel uncomfortable by the review process which makes slightly more sense if one applies the principle of charity.
- philh 12y ago
  > She seems to have understood it to mean it is unacceptable that you should feel uncomfortable and your feelings are unacceptable. No she hasn't, she's just... I don't have any polite description of what she seems to be doing. "I think it's saying it's unacceptable if s/o makes you feel that way, but the 1st graf def sets up some apologist precedents" "I know what they actually mean, it's just a funny Freudian insight that no-one caught the bad grammar" "I'm pretty sure you read that very wrong" "I'm ok with this".
Wintamute 12y ago
Part of the criticism in that Twitter thread seems to be based on a deliberate misreading of the following passage, > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. taking it to mean that people feeling abused is not acceptable, rather than abusing people being not acceptable. This deliberate misreading was couched in terms of unearthing some sort of Freudian slip. Seems rather disingenuous to me.
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  Seems rather disingenuous to me. Then why don't they say "... anyone is abused ..."? They'd also have to create a measurable definition of what qualifies as abuse; but why not? "feels" and "uncomfortable" are weasel words that get be used to interpret this sort of thing broadly as anyone wants. And don't for a second think anger-baitng bloggers won't do exactly that. Individual perception of actions in a social environment are different from intention which is different from the average LKML reader's perception. Critics' have alrady found that their bread and butter exists in the disparity among the three.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
ithkuil 12y ago
> Am I alone in reading the second para of https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/CodeOfConflict?id=b0bc65729070b9cbdbb53ff042984a3c545a0e34 https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.... … as deeply fucked up? YOUR FEELINGS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. Wat. The document's second paragraph is: > If however, anyone feels personally abused [..] , that is not acceptable > If so, please contact [..] work to resolve the issue[..] I had to backtrack a couple of times before parsing the sentence, but it's absolutely clear to me that it means that it's the abuse that it's not acceptable, not the feeling of being abused! If not so, what is the Technical Advisory Board supposed to do? To fix you so you don't feel being abused? It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of prejudice to misparse someones sentences like that. Or is this some kind of joke I don't get?
- protomyth 12y ago
  > It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of prejudice to misparse someones sentences like that. Or is this some kind of joke I don't get? Its a fairly common way to discredit someone. You parse their words not for their intent but to push whatever viewpoint you have. Its made quite a bit easier that most people will only look at the tweet, quoted sentence, or sound bite. It works as you can seen from that twitter stream.
  - Argorak 12y ago
    That's why, when setting up such a document for a project as big as the Linux Kernel, you get someone with writing skills and get extremely pedantic for a while. Simple and clear beats beauty here as well.
    - protomyth 12y ago
      I have a feeling that a beautifully written document would still have drawn criticism. If someone parsed the original to prove a point then nothing would be acceptable.
      - 12y ago
jessaustin 12y ago
I love that she had a conversation with rmsthebot.
- pakled_engineer 12y ago
  rms interjection bot has many victims "I did write some code in Java once but that was the island in Indonesia"
  - bitwize 12y ago
    Did it offer to do a traditional dance set to gamelan music?
- Torgo 12y ago
  Her reply indicated she knew it was a bot. She "suggested" to it that she didn't have to prefix Linux with "GNU/" because she was talking specifically about the kernel.

patzerhacker 12y ago

In regards to the Twitter link: user has fuchsia hair, of her opinion I do not care.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

pgeorgi 12y ago

That thread essentially states 'they didn't fire Linus (from his own project), so it must be a ruse.' Really?

doppp 12y ago
Yeah, I lost it upon reading that and the rest of her Twitter feed.
- hluska 12y ago
  I've never met her in person, but Hypatia ripped apart a product that a company I worked for released. Not only did she disclose terrifying problems in the most responsible and respectable way possible, but she was genuinely kind and interesting to work with. Based on my real world experience as opposed to 140 character bursts, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her.
  - greenrd 12y ago
    Consider that someone might have incentives to communicate with a potential client far more nicely than to a person they dislike who probably will never be their client.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

kyberias 12y ago

What the hell is wrong with these people?

Fede_V 12y ago

Wow, that seems wildly disproportionate to say the least.

hluska 12y ago

I already wrote this in reply to another comment within this thread, but I'd like to reiterate my main point. Hypatia found some serious problems with a security product that a company I worked for released. She contacted us and I got to work with her for awhile. Hypatia could have blogged and gotten rather famous because we were all over the Canadian news then. Instead, she erred on the side of extreme professionalism, came to us, and responsibly disclosed her concerns. Based on that experience, I will always argue that Hypatia is not only freakishly intelligent, but she manages to stay reasonable. Moreover, she was always interesting and fun to deal with. Knowing how good she is, I take her criticism quite seriously and I urge everyone reading this to be kind towards her.

philh 12y ago
What do you think her criticism is, that should be taken seriously? As far as I can tell it boils down to "The kernel people are abusive, Linus in particular is abusive, and this document doesn't change my mind about that".
- hluska 12y ago
  When I have edited people's writing, at times I have been too scathing and when I was in my twenties, a few writers even called me abusive. When I am stressed out and faced with what I consider incompetence, I don't always do a good job of controlling what I will write. I have deeply insulted people in my time, including people who were doing things for me for free. Heck, go through my comment history. A few days ago, I was so scathing on a Show HN that I am scared I actually destroyed an entrepreneur's confidence. I'm only sharing this because I'm not particularly qualified to answer this question. Personally, I don't find LT all that bad, but that might be because at various points, I have been worse. Had situations been reversed a decade ago, I would have been much more difficult for Hypatia to deal with than she was for me. Again, she was reasonable, she was 100% correct, and she had cause to roast me and the company I worked for over the coals. Despite this, she was kind and helpful. Heck, my boss yelled at me every time she emailed me, yet I have enjoyed and learned from every single interaction I have ever had with her. In light of how she behaved in contrast with how I would have, I trust that she is better qualified to make statements like this. Not only is she more talented than I am, but she is far better at communicating through difficult times than I am. It is unfortunate that Twitter confines you to 140 character bursts because 140 does not give much space to be constructive. I hope we get to hear how Hypatia would change that document because personally, I would learn from that.

xtrumanx 12y ago

I think she misinterpreted the Code of Conflict as she also tweeted: > Am I alone in reading the second para of [the Code of Conflict] … as deeply fucked up? YOUR FEELINGS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. Wat. The second paragraph begins with: > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. She seems to have understood it to mean it is unacceptable that you should feel uncomfortable and your feelings are unacceptable. I interpreted that is unacceptable that anyone should be made to feel uncomfortable by the review process which makes slightly more sense if one applies the principle of charity.

philh 12y ago
> She seems to have understood it to mean it is unacceptable that you should feel uncomfortable and your feelings are unacceptable. No she hasn't, she's just... I don't have any polite description of what she seems to be doing. "I think it's saying it's unacceptable if s/o makes you feel that way, but the 1st graf def sets up some apologist precedents" "I know what they actually mean, it's just a funny Freudian insight that no-one caught the bad grammar" "I'm pretty sure you read that very wrong" "I'm ok with this".

Wintamute 12y ago

Part of the criticism in that Twitter thread seems to be based on a deliberate misreading of the following passage, > If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. taking it to mean that people feeling abused is not acceptable, rather than abusing people being not acceptable. This deliberate misreading was couched in terms of unearthing some sort of Freudian slip. Seems rather disingenuous to me.

forgottenpass 12y ago
Seems rather disingenuous to me. Then why don't they say "... anyone is abused ..."? They'd also have to create a measurable definition of what qualifies as abuse; but why not? "feels" and "uncomfortable" are weasel words that get be used to interpret this sort of thing broadly as anyone wants. And don't for a second think anger-baitng bloggers won't do exactly that. Individual perception of actions in a social environment are different from intention which is different from the average LKML reader's perception. Critics' have alrady found that their bread and butter exists in the disparity among the three.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

ithkuil 12y ago

> Am I alone in reading the second para of https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/CodeOfConflict?id=b0bc65729070b9cbdbb53ff042984a3c545a0e34 https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.... … as deeply fucked up? YOUR FEELINGS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. Wat. The document's second paragraph is: > If however, anyone feels personally abused [..] , that is not acceptable > If so, please contact [..] work to resolve the issue[..] I had to backtrack a couple of times before parsing the sentence, but it's absolutely clear to me that it means that it's the abuse that it's not acceptable, not the feeling of being abused! If not so, what is the Technical Advisory Board supposed to do? To fix you so you don't feel being abused? It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of prejudice to misparse someones sentences like that. Or is this some kind of joke I don't get?

protomyth 12y ago
> It seems to me that it takes quite a bit of prejudice to misparse someones sentences like that. Or is this some kind of joke I don't get? Its a fairly common way to discredit someone. You parse their words not for their intent but to push whatever viewpoint you have. Its made quite a bit easier that most people will only look at the tweet, quoted sentence, or sound bite. It works as you can seen from that twitter stream.
- Argorak 12y ago
  That's why, when setting up such a document for a project as big as the Linux Kernel, you get someone with writing skills and get extremely pedantic for a while. Simple and clear beats beauty here as well.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    I have a feeling that a beautifully written document would still have drawn criticism. If someone parsed the original to prove a point then nothing would be acceptable.
    - 12y ago

jessaustin 12y ago

I love that she had a conversation with rmsthebot.

pakled_engineer 12y ago
rms interjection bot has many victims "I did write some code in Java once but that was the island in Indonesia"
- bitwize 12y ago
  Did it offer to do a traditional dance set to gamelan music?
Torgo 12y ago
Her reply indicated she knew it was a bot. She "suggested" to it that she didn't have to prefix Linux with "GNU/" because she was talking specifically about the kernel.