4 ms·

> People complain that they get crappy ads, unfortunately they also complain about being tracked. Is it so hard to understand? Give us ads related to the websi

by frik 12y ago

> People complain that they get crappy ads, unfortunately they also complain about being tracked. Is it so hard to understand? Give us ads related to the website content and pay CPM instead CPC to the website owner. On IT sites it would be helpful to see some ads about hardware devices and books, on digital news papers show us cars, holiday destinations, etc. Instead we are followed by ads of products that we just bought like a plague. With personalized ads, you just make it worse, as more visitor get annoyed and root their mobile device to install adblock.

icebraining 12y ago
Agreed. I searched for a pair of boots (for research - I buy those offline, since I like to try them), and since I happened to click on an Amazon link, I'm now getting inundated with ads for boots, most of which don't even ship to me! Meanwhile, Hack-a-day is the only site I remember buying something through their ads, since they actually show relevant stuff. It's not an amazing discovery that I'd be more interested in buying a Raspberry Pi after seeing an article about someone using it in an interesting way, than a pair of boots!
- chupy 12y ago
  Just check what company is tracking you and opt-out of their remarketing lists. http://www.networkadvertising.org/choices/ http://www.networkadvertising.org/choices/
- manigandham 12y ago
  Yes, this is called retargeting. By clicking on that link, you've expressed interest (however slight) in boots. Amazon is pretty big and they work with all the major retargeting networks so now you've been instantly put into several "segments" denoting this interest along with attempted lookups on every network for your user profile (including social networks, major exchanges, some large site/publisher networks, etc). Now eventually those retargeting segments will expire (usually somewhere between 10-30 days) but for the vast majority of people, the constant reminder of boots will actually lead to a sale. Remember we wouldn't do it if it didn't actually work. There is an issue if you do buy something as ecommerce data is valuable and under strict privacy controls so we don't always get to know you already bought something. And it's much harder if you walk into a store and buy it offline. Add in all the other privacy complaints and its like trying to do the impossible, users expect us to know exactly what they're interested in and what they've bought but don't want us to track anything... We're trying but it's not magic, something in that equation has to change. Either better/more accurate ads or more privacy. It's up to the users to choose.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    How can users choose? I don't remember being given the choice. As a user, what I know is that not only am I being tracked, but the result is fucking boots everywhere. Frankly, I see absolutely no gain from my perspective from the whole thing.
    - manigandham 12y ago
      Adblock/proxies/private browsing are one way (not recommended really) to choose. Another is to opt out of major networks, just search for "ad network opt out". Here's a starting point: http://www.aboutads.info/choices/ http://www.aboutads.info/choices/ Btw, we track that you've opted-out using the same methods we track everything else. So if you try to get around with adblock, etc then we don't know you've opted-out and we don't know your history either so we show you even worse/generic ads. It's a catch 22 but that's reality. You've expressed interest in boots, now you'll keep seeing ads for boots until you either buy boots (and that purchase data somehow finds it way back to the retargeting networks) or until the history segment expires. That's what advertising is for. Do you complain about billboards for movies you've already seen? At least online we can be a little bit more dynamic about it. But again, it's very tough with users complaining about privacy and the dozens of companies that data has to go through. You want us to know whether we can ship to you, but we dont have your address. We dont know who you are, where you live, or any of that. There are ways to try and figure this out, but it's usually not worth the cost and again there are privacy issues. Do you want us to know your address? If no, then how do you suggest we solve this? It's not perfect, there's a massive amount of technology involved but it's still a challenge to tie everything together so I hope you understand that this isnt something we take lightly but its unfortunately the best we can do right now. Now if you're saying you've never been impacted by ads online, that's pretty much scientifically wrong. Even the smallest impression does add up and eventually influence something down the line. Nobody wants to admit it, and you might not even notice, but I promise it's working.
      - frik 12y ago
        > then we don't know you've opted-out and we don't know your history either so we show you even worse/generic ads But that's what people want - generic ads. Instead of spying on user the ad networks should spy on content (crawl the web pages were the ad is on). It's very easy, the first time an ad is served from a specific page it's new for your network and you show a generic ad related to the topic of the website. Then you crawl the new page. For every new visit of that page you now have some information and can show a related ad to that page! Hint: That's how Google Ads work. There is no need to spy on visitors.
manigandham 12y ago
It's not, we get it. But there's a few different points here: - Context is hard. Like I said, there's a shift towards buying audiences rather because there's a lot of automation and real-time bidding infrastructure, so advertisers just target a demographic profile rather than caring about what site it runs on. Newer formats like native ads are more susceptible to context so they're take that more into account but all the banners you see really don't care about the site, in fact it's hard to pass all that information in real time anyway and outside of Google, even the biggest ad companies are not fit to index and categorize the entire internet. - I appreciate your feedback on what ads to show on what sites but the results when you look in aggregate are very different. Remember, a sample size of 1 is meaningless. We wouldn't be running those ads if they didn't work in some respect and every major network has tons of algorithms and data science to make sure they have an edge. It might be easy to say show car ads on news sites but different ads might perform better depending on audience, site history, location, time, etc so that's what gets shown. - For the most part though, you will see tech-related ads on tech sites, the industry isn't that bad at targeting and relevance. It's really really hard to believe you never see ads that are at least the slightest bit related to the site. - Being followed by products/companies you bought goes back to what I mentioned about retargeting. It's works really well. However, it again comes down to tracking. If you don't want to be tracked, how are we supposed to know you've bought something? Remember there's never just one single ad company that knows everything, there are hundreds of different databases tracking different things. Ecommerce/purchases are under even stricter privacy rules than just browsing habits and also more valuable data so companies don't give up access easily. It's about 100x more complicated if it's an offline sale (like buying something at your local store) and trying to tie that back to an online user. We're good at tracking but we're still humans and the tech is impressive but it can't just magically know everything while still respecting people's privacy wishes. - Pricing is another complicated issue. Part of digital advertising is the ability to track certain actions so the efficiency of performance ads increases by only paying when things perform (clicks, signups, etc). So no performance advertiser will pay CPM when they can pay CPC/CPA instead, and as soon as one network offers it, the rest have to follow or start losing business. It's just not that easy to avoid. Hope that helps clear up some your questions.

by frik 12y ago

icebraining 12y ago

Agreed. I searched for a pair of boots (for research - I buy those offline, since I like to try them), and since I happened to click on an Amazon link, I'm now getting inundated with ads for boots, most of which don't even ship to me! Meanwhile, Hack-a-day is the only site I remember buying something through their ads, since they actually show relevant stuff. It's not an amazing discovery that I'd be more interested in buying a Raspberry Pi after seeing an article about someone using it in an interesting way, than a pair of boots!

chupy 12y ago
Just check what company is tracking you and opt-out of their remarketing lists. http://www.networkadvertising.org/choices/ http://www.networkadvertising.org/choices/
manigandham 12y ago
Yes, this is called retargeting. By clicking on that link, you've expressed interest (however slight) in boots. Amazon is pretty big and they work with all the major retargeting networks so now you've been instantly put into several "segments" denoting this interest along with attempted lookups on every network for your user profile (including social networks, major exchanges, some large site/publisher networks, etc). Now eventually those retargeting segments will expire (usually somewhere between 10-30 days) but for the vast majority of people, the constant reminder of boots will actually lead to a sale. Remember we wouldn't do it if it didn't actually work. There is an issue if you do buy something as ecommerce data is valuable and under strict privacy controls so we don't always get to know you already bought something. And it's much harder if you walk into a store and buy it offline. Add in all the other privacy complaints and its like trying to do the impossible, users expect us to know exactly what they're interested in and what they've bought but don't want us to track anything... We're trying but it's not magic, something in that equation has to change. Either better/more accurate ads or more privacy. It's up to the users to choose.
- icebraining 12y ago
  How can users choose? I don't remember being given the choice. As a user, what I know is that not only am I being tracked, but the result is fucking boots everywhere. Frankly, I see absolutely no gain from my perspective from the whole thing.
  - manigandham 12y ago
    Adblock/proxies/private browsing are one way (not recommended really) to choose. Another is to opt out of major networks, just search for "ad network opt out". Here's a starting point: http://www.aboutads.info/choices/ http://www.aboutads.info/choices/ Btw, we track that you've opted-out using the same methods we track everything else. So if you try to get around with adblock, etc then we don't know you've opted-out and we don't know your history either so we show you even worse/generic ads. It's a catch 22 but that's reality. You've expressed interest in boots, now you'll keep seeing ads for boots until you either buy boots (and that purchase data somehow finds it way back to the retargeting networks) or until the history segment expires. That's what advertising is for. Do you complain about billboards for movies you've already seen? At least online we can be a little bit more dynamic about it. But again, it's very tough with users complaining about privacy and the dozens of companies that data has to go through. You want us to know whether we can ship to you, but we dont have your address. We dont know who you are, where you live, or any of that. There are ways to try and figure this out, but it's usually not worth the cost and again there are privacy issues. Do you want us to know your address? If no, then how do you suggest we solve this? It's not perfect, there's a massive amount of technology involved but it's still a challenge to tie everything together so I hope you understand that this isnt something we take lightly but its unfortunately the best we can do right now. Now if you're saying you've never been impacted by ads online, that's pretty much scientifically wrong. Even the smallest impression does add up and eventually influence something down the line. Nobody wants to admit it, and you might not even notice, but I promise it's working.
    - frik 12y ago
      > then we don't know you've opted-out and we don't know your history either so we show you even worse/generic ads But that's what people want - generic ads. Instead of spying on user the ad networks should spy on content (crawl the web pages were the ad is on). It's very easy, the first time an ad is served from a specific page it's new for your network and you show a generic ad related to the topic of the website. Then you crawl the new page. For every new visit of that page you now have some information and can show a related ad to that page! Hint: That's how Google Ads work. There is no need to spy on visitors.

manigandham 12y ago

It's not, we get it. But there's a few different points here: - Context is hard. Like I said, there's a shift towards buying audiences rather because there's a lot of automation and real-time bidding infrastructure, so advertisers just target a demographic profile rather than caring about what site it runs on. Newer formats like native ads are more susceptible to context so they're take that more into account but all the banners you see really don't care about the site, in fact it's hard to pass all that information in real time anyway and outside of Google, even the biggest ad companies are not fit to index and categorize the entire internet. - I appreciate your feedback on what ads to show on what sites but the results when you look in aggregate are very different. Remember, a sample size of 1 is meaningless. We wouldn't be running those ads if they didn't work in some respect and every major network has tons of algorithms and data science to make sure they have an edge. It might be easy to say show car ads on news sites but different ads might perform better depending on audience, site history, location, time, etc so that's what gets shown. - For the most part though, you will see tech-related ads on tech sites, the industry isn't that bad at targeting and relevance. It's really really hard to believe you never see ads that are at least the slightest bit related to the site. - Being followed by products/companies you bought goes back to what I mentioned about retargeting. It's works really well. However, it again comes down to tracking. If you don't want to be tracked, how are we supposed to know you've bought something? Remember there's never just one single ad company that knows everything, there are hundreds of different databases tracking different things. Ecommerce/purchases are under even stricter privacy rules than just browsing habits and also more valuable data so companies don't give up access easily. It's about 100x more complicated if it's an offline sale (like buying something at your local store) and trying to tie that back to an online user. We're good at tracking but we're still humans and the tech is impressive but it can't just magically know everything while still respecting people's privacy wishes. - Pricing is another complicated issue. Part of digital advertising is the ability to track certain actions so the efficiency of performance ads increases by only paying when things perform (clicks, signups, etc). So no performance advertiser will pay CPM when they can pay CPC/CPA instead, and as soon as one network offers it, the rest have to follow or start losing business. It's just not that easy to avoid. Hope that helps clear up some your questions.