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Wonderful, let me add this to the list of things I need to do in my spare time to remain a hire-able resource .... GitHub, Meetups, reading hacker news, prepari

Wonderful, let me add this to the list of things I need to do in my spare time to remain a hire-able resource .... GitHub, Meetups, reading hacker news, preparing for puzzle interviews, , HackerRank, conquering a CTF. Jeez, can we say dance monkey dance.

achompas 12y ago
I think patio11 and tptacek hope this can replace those things, so that you can work towards a new gig on your own terms (instead of going through the usual song-and-dance).
- bearclough 12y ago
  I admit it's a different song-and-dance but it's still a song-and-dance.
- jonny_eh 12y ago
  http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/
- digisth 12y ago
  There are lots of ways to acquire and prove skill and knowledge; ultimately, they are all monkey dances to at least some degree. Until we develop a way to read minds (and it'd be great to also do the reverse: give everyone the ability to insta-learn, Matrix-style), we will continue to have to use some kind of signaling mechanism. Right now, there are many of them, all with various levels of difficulty, entrance requirements, and resource requirements. Many are only available to those with various types of scarce resources: free time, supportive parents and family members, and money. Let's list some examples: - get a degree in any subject (money, family support) - get a degree in a more pertinent subject (money, family support) - continually learn new theory/techniques/technologies on your own (time) - write FLOSS code (time) - get industry certifications (money) - get achievements with HackerRank and other 'challenge' services (time) - go to interviews, answer questions (time, possibly others) Not to mention all of the 'administrative' things people do to communicate their capabilities (as another comment noted. Those take time, too.) Something like this seems like it is taking a stab at replacing at least a few of these, but of course it still requires at least some extra resources (in this case, time.) The go-at-your-own-pace nature of it definitely works in its favor. Things like this evolve similar to technology, and its cycles of consolidation and deconsolidation; where once we may have used separate devices (for music, video, reading, etc.), we now use just a couple, or increasingly, one. Perhaps we could think of things like this as the next steps in 'skill and knowledge acquisition consolidation.' Hopefully, things like this will reduce the need to spread efforts so thinly, and save us more of those scarce resources. So while it may be another monkey dance, perhaps it will allow us to dance less, but in a more focused way. Or at least stay on a smaller number of simian dance floors. If nothing else, it'll be another fun way to learn new things and experiment with theory/techniques/technology you ordinarily wouldn't.
  - Apocryphon 12y ago
    Whatever happened to companies spending the resources to train and mentor green recruits?
    - digisth 12y ago
      The same things that happened to a whole lot of other things, I suppose: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-in-a-career-workers-train-nonstop.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-... http://privatizationofrisk.ssrc.org/Hacker/printable.html http://privatizationofrisk.ssrc.org/Hacker/printable.html
tptacek 12y ago
What are some things you'd worry about a company like this doing that would increase dance-monkey-dance factor? What are some things a company like this could do to decrease dance-monkey-dance factor? We're not interested in making monkeys dance, unless they want to, and enjoy it.
- bearclough 12y ago
  Sorry, I think I'm a bit of a cynic and a bit burned out. There seems to be at least an expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after hours activities to make one self marketable. Personally having a 50+ hour a week day job + side projects + studying + leveling up in order to find new employment is exhausting .... I'm just concerned adding another implied responsibility to a candidates plate seems overwhelming. But, if someone loves to play CTFs and is seeking employment than its a great match. Me personally I'm a build things I want to see in the world and the job will come ... kind of person.
  - larrys 12y ago
    "expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after hours activities to make one self marketable" On hacker news you are getting a very small slice of the tech industry. And by reading HN you are subjected to repeated attempts to make you think there is a clear way to be marketable and to earn a living. Rest assured that there are people in tech that the HN crowd makes fun of that are earning fine livings and enjoying their jobs.
    - dsp1234 12y ago
      I work in a beautiful non-SV city, earn six figures, and enjoy my job. I am a Classic ASP developer.
    - grumblestumble 12y ago
      Also, rest assured that for the overwhelming majority of competent, smart tech workers, only a tiny percentage have heard of HN, and a tiny percentage of that slice view it as something to be taken seriously. For most, there is no difference between Hacker News and https://twitter.com/ViceHN https://twitter.com/ViceHN.
danielweber 12y ago
While I'm very happy to see attempts to get rid of the interview and move towards a work-sample test, this comment represents the whole sense of unease I have at this. There is, of course, releveant XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/ I can say that I have hopes that if anyone can stop what you fear from happening it's these people.

achompas 12y ago

I think patio11 and tptacek hope this can replace those things, so that you can work towards a new gig on your own terms (instead of going through the usual song-and-dance).

bearclough 12y ago
I admit it's a different song-and-dance but it's still a song-and-dance.
jonny_eh 12y ago
http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/
digisth 12y ago
There are lots of ways to acquire and prove skill and knowledge; ultimately, they are all monkey dances to at least some degree. Until we develop a way to read minds (and it'd be great to also do the reverse: give everyone the ability to insta-learn, Matrix-style), we will continue to have to use some kind of signaling mechanism. Right now, there are many of them, all with various levels of difficulty, entrance requirements, and resource requirements. Many are only available to those with various types of scarce resources: free time, supportive parents and family members, and money. Let's list some examples: - get a degree in any subject (money, family support) - get a degree in a more pertinent subject (money, family support) - continually learn new theory/techniques/technologies on your own (time) - write FLOSS code (time) - get industry certifications (money) - get achievements with HackerRank and other 'challenge' services (time) - go to interviews, answer questions (time, possibly others) Not to mention all of the 'administrative' things people do to communicate their capabilities (as another comment noted. Those take time, too.) Something like this seems like it is taking a stab at replacing at least a few of these, but of course it still requires at least some extra resources (in this case, time.) The go-at-your-own-pace nature of it definitely works in its favor. Things like this evolve similar to technology, and its cycles of consolidation and deconsolidation; where once we may have used separate devices (for music, video, reading, etc.), we now use just a couple, or increasingly, one. Perhaps we could think of things like this as the next steps in 'skill and knowledge acquisition consolidation.' Hopefully, things like this will reduce the need to spread efforts so thinly, and save us more of those scarce resources. So while it may be another monkey dance, perhaps it will allow us to dance less, but in a more focused way. Or at least stay on a smaller number of simian dance floors. If nothing else, it'll be another fun way to learn new things and experiment with theory/techniques/technology you ordinarily wouldn't.
- Apocryphon 12y ago
  Whatever happened to companies spending the resources to train and mentor green recruits?
  - digisth 12y ago
    The same things that happened to a whole lot of other things, I suppose: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-in-a-career-workers-train-nonstop.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/business/to-stay-relevant-... http://privatizationofrisk.ssrc.org/Hacker/printable.html http://privatizationofrisk.ssrc.org/Hacker/printable.html

tptacek 12y ago

What are some things you'd worry about a company like this doing that would increase dance-monkey-dance factor? What are some things a company like this could do to decrease dance-monkey-dance factor? We're not interested in making monkeys dance, unless they want to, and enjoy it.

bearclough 12y ago
Sorry, I think I'm a bit of a cynic and a bit burned out. There seems to be at least an expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after hours activities to make one self marketable. Personally having a 50+ hour a week day job + side projects + studying + leveling up in order to find new employment is exhausting .... I'm just concerned adding another implied responsibility to a candidates plate seems overwhelming. But, if someone loves to play CTFs and is seeking employment than its a great match. Me personally I'm a build things I want to see in the world and the job will come ... kind of person.
- larrys 12y ago
  "expectation in the tech industry of having to maintain certain after hours activities to make one self marketable" On hacker news you are getting a very small slice of the tech industry. And by reading HN you are subjected to repeated attempts to make you think there is a clear way to be marketable and to earn a living. Rest assured that there are people in tech that the HN crowd makes fun of that are earning fine livings and enjoying their jobs.
  - dsp1234 12y ago
    I work in a beautiful non-SV city, earn six figures, and enjoy my job. I am a Classic ASP developer.
  - grumblestumble 12y ago
    Also, rest assured that for the overwhelming majority of competent, smart tech workers, only a tiny percentage have heard of HN, and a tiny percentage of that slice view it as something to be taken seriously. For most, there is no difference between Hacker News and https://twitter.com/ViceHN https://twitter.com/ViceHN.

danielweber 12y ago

While I'm very happy to see attempts to get rid of the interview and move towards a work-sample test, this comment represents the whole sense of unease I have at this. There is, of course, releveant XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/ I can say that I have hopes that if anyone can stop what you fear from happening it's these people.