2 ms·

>It's not about outrage politics. You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspe

>It's not about outrage politics. You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspective here.

schiffern 12y ago
>equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children If you think that's what TeMPOraL is saying, I think you need to read more closely. There's more nuance than you give credit for.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  If the root cause of vaccination refusal is declining trust in institutions, and established corporate brands can be considered institutions, then intentionally diluting or weakening an established corporate brand can be seen as contributing in a very minor way to vaccination refusal. If a person has never once encountered an institutional representative that is trustworthy, it is natural by human psychology (but not by formal logic) to conclude that such people do not exist. Then, when someone approaches, and relies upon institutional trustworthiness to accomplish a certain purpose, such as by invoking the CDC, the AMA, and medical colleges around the world to convince parents to vaccinate their child, what you absolutely do not want is for them frantically searching the paperwork for the checkbox that has to be unchecked in order to not give the kid autism (especially the Ask.com toolbar form of it) with their immunity. It may be obvious to you that Oracle and physicians are different. But to many people, medicine and software are just different types of magic, and equally confusing. They might as well be alchemy and thaumaturgy. For them, using software is like following a recipe or performing a ritual. Everything they do not understand is equally magical. Oracle contributes to the undermining of trust in the same way as the quick-lube mechanic that charges to refill the blinker fluid, or the home renovation contractor that does a bait-and-switch with the estimates, or the banker that issues a bunch of liar loans, or the public retirement plan administrator that invests in businesses owned by friends of the mayor, or the fed-cop who uses parallel construction on illegal surveillance data to catch a crook. It creates an atmosphere of mistrust. That alone is not sufficient to bleed over into medicine, but the health care industry in the US is an enormous, corrupt clusterfuck. Anecdotes are not data, but a well-told story shapes public opinion in a measure far beyond statistical significance. One video documentary on YouTube is more impactful than a 200-page CDC report. If the CDC has no inherent trustworthiness, people will preferentially believe the thing they can understand. It isn't Oracle's fault, in any measurable way, but they certainly are not helping. We need to be able to trust someone to not sell us out for a fraction of a penny.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Indeed. And so I'm not saying that it's Oracle that is destroying the trust in doctors - I only want to point out that they are contributing to the problem, via the mechanism you described. And that everyone else who's "selling you out for a fraction of a penny" is also contributing, and all those contributions add up to a very serious problem we're facing.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
I do no such thing. Please read more closely. For the sake of clarity, let me explain this in other form. 1) Anti-vaccine movement = public health problem = dangerous. 2) Anti-vaccine movement comes from declining levels of trust in authorities. 3) Tricking your users into installing crapware = abusing them = making them trust your company less. 4) Being lied to and abused like that by pretty much every company all the time, in all sectors = people lose the general level of trust in organizations. 5) from 1), 2) and 4), lack of trust leads to actual danger. 6) from 3), by abusing your users you're contributing to actual danger. "Contributing" doesn't mean you're fully responsible for the outcome - it means you're as responsible as your contribution is. It's a tragedy-of-commons thing.
- RaleyField 12y ago
  > Anti-vaccine movement comes from declining levels of trust in authorities. I'll just leave this relevant episode of [Last Week Tonight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I). While anti-vaxxers are clearly wrong let's acknowledge that health care, at least in the US, has been partially corrupted. The thought that medical workers might be offering unsound advice in this one area when it's known they behaved unethically in that other area suddenly does not appear so unreasonable.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    I see your John Oliver and raise you Yvain[0] - a doctor's description of how it actually works. Spoiler: it's more subtle and much worse. [0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/17/pharma-virumque/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/17/pharma-virumque/
phkahler 12y ago
>> You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspective here. He's saying: 1) Anti-vaxers don't trust corporation or the government - which is why they don't vax. 2) Corps/govs are repeatedly seen doing stuff for themselves at the expense of the public - this is where that lack of trust comes from. 3) Crapware and unwanted toolbars are an example of #2 It's a fairly direct contribution from 3 to 2 to 1. It's not that the crapware makes people fail to vaccinate. It's that the crapware is part of a widespread problem reinforcing the appearance of #2 which leads people to #1.

>It's not about outrage politics. You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspective here.

schiffern 12y ago

>equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children If you think that's what TeMPOraL is saying, I think you need to read more closely. There's more nuance than you give credit for.

logfromblammo 12y ago
If the root cause of vaccination refusal is declining trust in institutions, and established corporate brands can be considered institutions, then intentionally diluting or weakening an established corporate brand can be seen as contributing in a very minor way to vaccination refusal. If a person has never once encountered an institutional representative that is trustworthy, it is natural by human psychology (but not by formal logic) to conclude that such people do not exist. Then, when someone approaches, and relies upon institutional trustworthiness to accomplish a certain purpose, such as by invoking the CDC, the AMA, and medical colleges around the world to convince parents to vaccinate their child, what you absolutely do not want is for them frantically searching the paperwork for the checkbox that has to be unchecked in order to not give the kid autism (especially the Ask.com toolbar form of it) with their immunity. It may be obvious to you that Oracle and physicians are different. But to many people, medicine and software are just different types of magic, and equally confusing. They might as well be alchemy and thaumaturgy. For them, using software is like following a recipe or performing a ritual. Everything they do not understand is equally magical. Oracle contributes to the undermining of trust in the same way as the quick-lube mechanic that charges to refill the blinker fluid, or the home renovation contractor that does a bait-and-switch with the estimates, or the banker that issues a bunch of liar loans, or the public retirement plan administrator that invests in businesses owned by friends of the mayor, or the fed-cop who uses parallel construction on illegal surveillance data to catch a crook. It creates an atmosphere of mistrust. That alone is not sufficient to bleed over into medicine, but the health care industry in the US is an enormous, corrupt clusterfuck. Anecdotes are not data, but a well-told story shapes public opinion in a measure far beyond statistical significance. One video documentary on YouTube is more impactful than a 200-page CDC report. If the CDC has no inherent trustworthiness, people will preferentially believe the thing they can understand. It isn't Oracle's fault, in any measurable way, but they certainly are not helping. We need to be able to trust someone to not sell us out for a fraction of a penny.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Indeed. And so I'm not saying that it's Oracle that is destroying the trust in doctors - I only want to point out that they are contributing to the problem, via the mechanism you described. And that everyone else who's "selling you out for a fraction of a penny" is also contributing, and all those contributions add up to a very serious problem we're facing.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

I do no such thing. Please read more closely. For the sake of clarity, let me explain this in other form. 1) Anti-vaccine movement = public health problem = dangerous. 2) Anti-vaccine movement comes from declining levels of trust in authorities. 3) Tricking your users into installing crapware = abusing them = making them trust your company less. 4) Being lied to and abused like that by pretty much every company all the time, in all sectors = people lose the general level of trust in organizations. 5) from 1), 2) and 4), lack of trust leads to actual danger. 6) from 3), by abusing your users you're contributing to actual danger. "Contributing" doesn't mean you're fully responsible for the outcome - it means you're as responsible as your contribution is. It's a tragedy-of-commons thing.

RaleyField 12y ago
> Anti-vaccine movement comes from declining levels of trust in authorities. I'll just leave this relevant episode of [Last Week Tonight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ2UeOTO3I). While anti-vaxxers are clearly wrong let's acknowledge that health care, at least in the US, has been partially corrupted. The thought that medical workers might be offering unsound advice in this one area when it's known they behaved unethically in that other area suddenly does not appear so unreasonable.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I see your John Oliver and raise you Yvain[0] - a doctor's description of how it actually works. Spoiler: it's more subtle and much worse. [0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/17/pharma-virumque/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/17/pharma-virumque/

phkahler 12y ago

>> You are literally equating a toolbar with parents not vaccinating their children. I think you've lost a basic sense of perspective here. He's saying: 1) Anti-vaxers don't trust corporation or the government - which is why they don't vax. 2) Corps/govs are repeatedly seen doing stuff for themselves at the expense of the public - this is where that lack of trust comes from. 3) Crapware and unwanted toolbars are an example of #2 It's a fairly direct contribution from 3 to 2 to 1. It's not that the crapware makes people fail to vaccinate. It's that the crapware is part of a widespread problem reinforcing the appearance of #2 which leads people to #1.