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Sys Admin/Engineer here. We had it right 15 years ago. You couldn't become an admin unless you started as a programmer. You needed a deep understanding of yo

Sys Admin/Engineer here. We had it right 15 years ago. You couldn't become an admin unless you started as a programmer. You needed a deep understanding of your OS and good knowledge of C. At that time the devs ("programmers") were less knowledgeable than sys admins. You had to have to skills to analysis, debug and fix their code. When sys admins stopped coding the result was weaker admins. Sys admins ought to code within their domain, engineer, and maintain their systems for performance and high availability. It is long over due that sys admins return to their roots and get ahead of the pack.

fsniper 12y ago
I still believe, a good or the best sysadmins are the ones who can code. A sysadmin should know the system inside out, including the software running over it.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  As a sysadmin for the last 15 years, I'm fine with this, as long as you're going to pay me as a senior software engineer (if I have to know the app inside and out) who is also going to be on call constantly and doing infrastructure all day long. If you as a business or employer want to continue to squeeze additional roles and knowledge into people, be prepared to pay for it.
  - fsniper 12y ago
    Of course you should get what you are worth and the position needs.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      My experience has been people rarely want to pay appropriately when they're demanding you do several roles.
  - virmundi 12y ago
    Why would you want to get paid less? In my experience developers in Indy get about 80k. SysAdmins for IS and SQLServer get about 120k. They also don't have to work that long since the servers themselves are fairly robust.
    - teh_klev 12y ago
      > SysAdmins for IIS and SQLServer get about 120k. [My note: I presume you do mean IIS] Presuming this is USD, but even in the UK as GBP - "In my dreams" - and I'm a developer as well as a sysadmin for Windows (IIS/SQL) and Linux (Apache/MySQL), 25 years man and boy but have always kept on top of my game :) Outside of London you'd be lucky to hit 45K GBP (~70K US$) in a permy role with that skillset, perhaps 60-65K GBP if contracting.
      - malvosenior 12y ago
        The UK pays quite a bit less than the US. $120k /year for a good sys admin would be a deal in the states.
        kingnothing 12y ago
        A deal in San Francisco or NY perhaps, but not most of the country.
        derekp7 12y ago
        Midwest pays about 80 to 95K for a decent sysadmin (Unix/Linux w/ 10+ years of experience), only the specialized shops (trading firms, any place with a lot of money flowing through them) will go 120K or more. If you know of any place north of Chicago that pays 120K or more for a 20-year Unix/Linux engineer with C systems level programming talent, and won't burn you out in 2 years like the trading firms downtown, I'd be interested.
mrjatx 12y ago
I'm part of the recent sysadmin generation that had no programming skills and grew up doing what I consider more "application administration." Lots of clicking Next with no real understanding of what to do if that Next button quits working. Stack tracing? Procmon? Miserable understanding of DNS and networking, what's a /24? These were things senior admins knew and used once the tickets went up the chain because customers were screaming. I was always (well, not always, once I'd proven myself) a senior admin/engineer, now I focus almost purely on AWS automation, and it bums me at out how many admins are completely happy with just being Next button admins who are absolutely AFRAID of touching a bash or zsh shell, or even a Cisco router without the UI. I suppose it shouldn't bother me, it's done great for my career.
- uiri 12y ago
  Are you talking about sysadmins on Windows? I can't imagine a Linux sysadmin being afraid of bash, zsh or a ios shell. My impression is that knowledge of some combination of bash, perl and python scripting is a basic job requirement.
  - mrjatx 12y ago
    I've worked for several MSPs and yeah, I mostly mean Windows. But we worked on just about everything. Especially Cisco/Dell CLI equipment (routers, switches, etc).
  - DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
    the root of the problem (the idea that sysadmins can't program) might come from the fact that every company whether furniture/clothing store or any other sizable non-tech business needs sysadmins. But only if technology is your core business you need good developers. This probably leads to generalization of sysadmins not knowing their bits/bytes. Sure guys working for ISP's and in datacenters are a different breed but they still get thrown into the same category because of the job-title.
    - fsniper 12y ago
      I think the problem is, some companies are expecting a sysadmin to be the "IT guy". The one who is only expected to call contractors to fix that recurring network problem, and install enough Windows boxes for the new hires.
RemoteWorker 12y ago
I doubt you can fix today's devs' code, unless it's a very very junior dev. It's like saying a doctor should be able to fix a chemist's work.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Hah, I wish that were the case. Over the last decade, popular programming languages are just catching up to what existed in the 70s.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- bkeroack 12y ago
  I don't know if it was intentional, but this comes off as an incredibly arrogant comment.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Agreed And my Dr is fixing my biochemistry you should see the amount of pills I take a day to get it back into balance.
- weissadam 12y ago
  Some do. They're called MD/PhDs. While they're somewhat rare, they do indeed exist.
nasalgoat 12y ago
I've been at this for over 20 years and have zero programming experience. So, your blanket statement isn't true - most of the best admins I've worked with have had no programming experience but deep systems understanding.
walshemj 12y ago
That was how I started a lot longer that 15 years ago - a common task would be oh we have just brought this expensive piece of kit (200% of my yearly salary) its its in that room hook it write any drivers then go and see Bob to work out how to digitize droplets in 3D When I worked for a large Telco one of the reasons they employed me was to have an in house sysad for our Primes - we had the largest cluster in the UK running MR back in the early 80's I rember one of my IBM mates at the time being horrified that we allowed to write all our own JCL
AceJohnny2 12y ago
The problem is that such a sysadmin is expensive, and what companies call "sysadmin" today is an almost completely different job. Microsoft revolutionized personal computers because they made things easy and cheap. Their stuff was meant to be used by the average joe, not a greybeard who'd survived the Unix Wars. At the same time, IT is always seen as a "cost center" to be reduced and outsourced. Unix? Too expensive, replace them with Windows, and if there's a problem, re-image the system. The sysadmins you describe still exist, but they're called SREs by Google or who knows what elsewhere. Today's "sysadmin" is an outsourced phonecenter guy in Bangalore.

fsniper 12y ago

I still believe, a good or the best sysadmins are the ones who can code. A sysadmin should know the system inside out, including the software running over it.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
As a sysadmin for the last 15 years, I'm fine with this, as long as you're going to pay me as a senior software engineer (if I have to know the app inside and out) who is also going to be on call constantly and doing infrastructure all day long. If you as a business or employer want to continue to squeeze additional roles and knowledge into people, be prepared to pay for it.
- fsniper 12y ago
  Of course you should get what you are worth and the position needs.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    My experience has been people rarely want to pay appropriately when they're demanding you do several roles.
- virmundi 12y ago
  Why would you want to get paid less? In my experience developers in Indy get about 80k. SysAdmins for IS and SQLServer get about 120k. They also don't have to work that long since the servers themselves are fairly robust.
  - teh_klev 12y ago
    > SysAdmins for IIS and SQLServer get about 120k. [My note: I presume you do mean IIS] Presuming this is USD, but even in the UK as GBP - "In my dreams" - and I'm a developer as well as a sysadmin for Windows (IIS/SQL) and Linux (Apache/MySQL), 25 years man and boy but have always kept on top of my game :) Outside of London you'd be lucky to hit 45K GBP (~70K US$) in a permy role with that skillset, perhaps 60-65K GBP if contracting.
    - malvosenior 12y ago
      The UK pays quite a bit less than the US. $120k /year for a good sys admin would be a deal in the states.
      - kingnothing 12y ago
        A deal in San Francisco or NY perhaps, but not most of the country.
      - derekp7 12y ago
        Midwest pays about 80 to 95K for a decent sysadmin (Unix/Linux w/ 10+ years of experience), only the specialized shops (trading firms, any place with a lot of money flowing through them) will go 120K or more. If you know of any place north of Chicago that pays 120K or more for a 20-year Unix/Linux engineer with C systems level programming talent, and won't burn you out in 2 years like the trading firms downtown, I'd be interested.

mrjatx 12y ago

I'm part of the recent sysadmin generation that had no programming skills and grew up doing what I consider more "application administration." Lots of clicking Next with no real understanding of what to do if that Next button quits working. Stack tracing? Procmon? Miserable understanding of DNS and networking, what's a /24? These were things senior admins knew and used once the tickets went up the chain because customers were screaming. I was always (well, not always, once I'd proven myself) a senior admin/engineer, now I focus almost purely on AWS automation, and it bums me at out how many admins are completely happy with just being Next button admins who are absolutely AFRAID of touching a bash or zsh shell, or even a Cisco router without the UI. I suppose it shouldn't bother me, it's done great for my career.

uiri 12y ago
Are you talking about sysadmins on Windows? I can't imagine a Linux sysadmin being afraid of bash, zsh or a ios shell. My impression is that knowledge of some combination of bash, perl and python scripting is a basic job requirement.
- mrjatx 12y ago
  I've worked for several MSPs and yeah, I mostly mean Windows. But we worked on just about everything. Especially Cisco/Dell CLI equipment (routers, switches, etc).
- DyslexicAtheist 12y ago
  the root of the problem (the idea that sysadmins can't program) might come from the fact that every company whether furniture/clothing store or any other sizable non-tech business needs sysadmins. But only if technology is your core business you need good developers. This probably leads to generalization of sysadmins not knowing their bits/bytes. Sure guys working for ISP's and in datacenters are a different breed but they still get thrown into the same category because of the job-title.
  - fsniper 12y ago
    I think the problem is, some companies are expecting a sysadmin to be the "IT guy". The one who is only expected to call contractors to fix that recurring network problem, and install enough Windows boxes for the new hires.

RemoteWorker 12y ago

I doubt you can fix today's devs' code, unless it's a very very junior dev. It's like saying a doctor should be able to fix a chemist's work.

MichaelGG 12y ago
Hah, I wish that were the case. Over the last decade, popular programming languages are just catching up to what existed in the 70s.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
bkeroack 12y ago
I don't know if it was intentional, but this comes off as an incredibly arrogant comment.
- walshemj 12y ago
  Agreed And my Dr is fixing my biochemistry you should see the amount of pills I take a day to get it back into balance.
weissadam 12y ago
Some do. They're called MD/PhDs. While they're somewhat rare, they do indeed exist.

nasalgoat 12y ago

I've been at this for over 20 years and have zero programming experience. So, your blanket statement isn't true - most of the best admins I've worked with have had no programming experience but deep systems understanding.

walshemj 12y ago

That was how I started a lot longer that 15 years ago - a common task would be oh we have just brought this expensive piece of kit (200% of my yearly salary) its its in that room hook it write any drivers then go and see Bob to work out how to digitize droplets in 3D When I worked for a large Telco one of the reasons they employed me was to have an in house sysad for our Primes - we had the largest cluster in the UK running MR back in the early 80's I rember one of my IBM mates at the time being horrified that we allowed to write all our own JCL

AceJohnny2 12y ago

The problem is that such a sysadmin is expensive, and what companies call "sysadmin" today is an almost completely different job. Microsoft revolutionized personal computers because they made things easy and cheap. Their stuff was meant to be used by the average joe, not a greybeard who'd survived the Unix Wars. At the same time, IT is always seen as a "cost center" to be reduced and outsourced. Unix? Too expensive, replace them with Windows, and if there's a problem, re-image the system. The sysadmins you describe still exist, but they're called SREs by Google or who knows what elsewhere. Today's "sysadmin" is an outsourced phonecenter guy in Bangalore.