6 ms·

I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comment

by bglazer 12y ago

I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd. I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded, smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the first to decry the inefficiencies of having one or two (SF and NY) annointed "tech hubs" and actively eschewing every other place. Why crowd every damn programmer in the world into the SF bay area when we have the internet?! That's the whole point of the internet! There's also the cultural argument. Tech work has tended to attract people who are part of non-mainstream culture. Tech hub cities attract these people because they already have every culture and subculture imaginable and a society that mostly tolerates them. There's also a perception that other places don't have this and that their particular affiliation would invite outright hostility. That's mostly not true. Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. Again though, I think that choosing where you live based on whether or not you can surround yourself with exclusively like minded people is counter to the hacker ethos. Let's not forget that Silicon Valley was not always what it is now. People built the place, and the rest of the US and the world could benefit from people who attempted to do the same elsewhere.

rdtsc 12y ago
> Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. That is not enough. There need to be companies willing to hire. Those companies spring around where there is more talent so they don't have to relocate everyone. Where is more talent? Around more companies. It is a feedback loop. Network effect is probably the correct phrase here. Unless large tech companies perhaps move their main offices or open large offices around these Midwest or Southern cities the situation will not change. But do we see Google, Facebook, Apple moving their HQ to Cleveland, or Memphis?
- bglazer 12y ago
  I was going to add a comment at the end about how I fear that I may be fighting a losing battle against socioeconomic feedback loops. That's profoundly sad to me though. Concentrating all of the technological revolution's talent and wealth in a few cities will have bad effects on the rest of the country.
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    Wonder if more acceptance of remote work will change this. Image a thousand or ten thousand remote engineers, getting Google salaries. That is a lot of income, a lot taxes, a lot of spending power. There are smaller cities that are called one-company towns. One university, one army base, one large manufacturing plant. That is the largest and most prominent employer in the region. If that one thing goes away, the town will suffer. Remote workers are different because they can hedge that risk. So with more remote work, eventually, perhaps we'll start seeing new patterns emerge, it could revitalize some areas. If there is more talent gathering, a positive feedback loop might start... Edit: To add, tax incentive structure can be important. Some states do a lot better in that regard. There are even special deals arranged like "If you move your headquarters here, you'll pay lower taxes" or something similar.
    - nightski 12y ago
      I work remote from a small city in the Midwest and easily bring in > 200k servicing select clients from throughout the country. It could be a lot greater if I had any interest in subcontracting/hiring or growing. While I occasionally visit SF I always get a good chuckle when my friend that lives there talks about how expensive things are and the pains of living there.
      - cageface 12y ago
        If you do have any interest in subcontracting web or iOS work please ping me. Contact info is in my profle.
    - eanplatter 12y ago
      The trouble comes when companies pay remote employees less if their cost of living is lower, or when they move to another place so they can pay people less. HP did that when they moved to Boise, ID.
- tracker1 12y ago
  It's worth mentioning that there are plenty of technology positions that aren't for a technology giant... For example in the Phoenix area we have Paypal, Wells Fargo, American Express, GoDaddy, Intel, Motorolla and a number of other very large companies. Many large companies have a presence in multiple cities, not just the tech hubs, and there and many teams have to operate effectively remote (from other members) anyway. Phoenix has 80-90% the pay, with significantly less cost of living... other areas can say the same. There is something to be said for being in the Silicon Valley area, but just the same, it's not necessarily better for any given company to be there than any major city with an international airport terminal.
  - jobposter1234 12y ago
    I'm confused on the point you are making. Companies that hire programmers live everywhere. Given the disparate perception of a person working at Paypal, etc., compared to a Bay Area startup, even given the difference in purchasing power... Might'n't (?) we conclude that people choose the Bay Area for other reasons than salary and hiring? Why is the default to believe people in the B.A. are irrational? I say this as someone with no dog in the fight, but have observed each side arguing to defend their bias.
    - rdtsc 12y ago
      > Companies that hire programmers live everywhere. They don't though, that's the thing. Some towns don't have that many programming jobs. If you are already in a tech hub it seems just apply to 10 companies and you'd get 3 offers in 2 weeks time is not unusual. Another thing happens is the programmers already there are standing in line applying for the fews jobs available. And sometimes requirements and salaries become too low. Not all programmers are young college grads wanting to work for cool startups. There are lot of them with homes, families, kids, aging parents, a larger social network etc. > Might'n't (?) we conclude that people choose the Bay Area for other reasons than salary and hiring? It depends. I, for example, started looking around the area where I was living already for a job. Didn't find anything there so after that applied to companies all over the country. I had offers in completely different parts of the county and just picked one. Availability of other future jobs was an important factor. But I didn't have 10 placest to pick from. It was just a few. If all were in BA I would have been in BA. If they were in Montana, I would have been in Montana probably. In other words, I didn't first pick the geographic area then applied to work there, I applied to companies, and then ended up in a geographic area. I imagine if you are exceptionally good, it doesn't matter. Could probably throw a dart at the map, and then find a job there.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  You're seeing quite a few big offices in Chicago (Groupon, Nokia, CareerBuilder, Cars.com, Google, Razorfish, Grubhub, etc)
- driverdan 12y ago
  As bglazer said, we have this magical thing called the internet that lets tech people work from anywhere in the world. No need to have a local office.
- jcchin41 12y ago
  1 MILLION people aren't enough to see network effects?? Is 3M [1] closer to the magic number? I moved from Boston(4M) to Cleveland(1.7M) and although the lifestyle is different, there is still way more opportunities, culture, entertainment, etc..., than anyone could absorb in a single lifetime in either place. I visit my friends in SF every year and although they make more than double my salary, they can't even come close to matching my apartment situation. There is an infinite number of things to do in any city, and I can already afford things (like a house, or an acre of land even!) that aren't even fathomable to them. I won't stay in Cleveland forever, simply because I'd like to experience other cities, but I can't say SF is even in my top three. SF is a great place, but I'd like to find one of the still relatively "undiscovered" great places that isn't completely saturated. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_are...
- gradi3nt 12y ago
  Epic Systems (digital healthcare records) employs 5,000 people just outside Madison, WI. Soon to be 10,000 according to their roadmap. I wouldn't be surprised if other corporations looking to hire gobs of college grads start popping up (or already have popped up) near other small midwest cities.
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    What other ones employ 10k software developers? If Epic rejected your application or laid you off. How many other software jobs would there be in the area?
    - jrjarrett 12y ago
      It's not "if", it's "when."
lkrubner 12y ago
Your view of this is exactly backwards. To get an accurate view of what is happening, start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely? The kind that needs constant face-to-face contact, especially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need to be in New York or San Francisco.
- wwweston 12y ago
  > start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely? Just about any kind of software development can be done remotely, really. It's really a function of the skills possessed by everyone involved in a distributed team vs the obstacles distribution may or may not present (and there's different degrees of remoteness -- same city, same time zone, same country, same hemisphere all present different challenges) > specially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need to be in New York or San Francisco. Unless the CEO doesn't (or your customers don't) live in SF and NY. I suppose the next line is "well, the investors aren't going to want to visit flyover country." It turns out -- strangely enough -- there are even investors who don't live in SF and NY, though sometimes they strangely don't all want to invest in a slick social deals pyramid or revenue-free chat app or whatever else is hot at the moment...
  - jessedhillon 12y ago
    ...though sometimes they strangely don't all want to invest in a slick social deals pyramid or revenue-free chat app or whatever else is hot at the moment... You can't argue with returns, and "slick" VC returns trump Smallville's every day of the week.
    - wwweston 12y ago
      One "smallville" startup I worked for turned about $2M in investment into a $60M sale. How'd Groupon's investors make out on their returns?
sporkenfang 12y ago
My friend, I have absolutely nothing against you, or the majority of people who live in Tennessee. In fact, the great majority of my family live in the part of the South that bleeds into the Midwest... and I live as far west as I can possibly get from them because there's a fundamental disconnect in terms of belief system and interests between them and myself, and between myself and the greater population of conservative areas such as but certainly not limited to Memphis. I'm not even all that liberal politically (politics are probably a source where disconnect might come from for some hackers), I'm pretty middle-of-the road as far as extremes to the American right and left are concerned -- but when I lived in the South, I felt distinctly uncomfortable and out of place. In California and the PNW and even Colorado, I don't generally feel this disconnect with my surroundings; I feel more connected to the place and with a fraction of the populace greater than just a few individuals. This is 100% personal, but I don't think I'm entirely alone in expressing these sentiments. I moved away because I was sick of always being uncomfortable, which didn't contribute to my quality of life, nor to that of the people who were probably mutually made uncomfortable. & again, by SF or NY standards, I'm not strange/liberal/letting my freak flag fly in the slightest. I'm (mostly) white, but therein lies part of the problem I have with the Midwest and the South.
- bglazer 12y ago
  I certainly understand. I do get sick of feeling like a weird liberal occasionally. But really, is it that bad? Also, there's clear evidence [1][2] that people are leaving "mixed" communities to live in areas that are more homogenous and in line with their politics and culture. I don't want to be a part of that, as I consider it a problem. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/13/people-move-to-places-that-fit-their-politics-and-its-helping-republicans/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/13/pe... [2] http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-3-political-polarization-and-personal-life/pp-2014-06-12-polarization-3-02/ http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-3-political-p...
  - sporkenfang 12y ago
    Again, this is personal, but people in the South and Midwest seem to generally have and occasionally let fly... sentiment... against those who don't appear fully white on first glance. Yeah, combine the conservatism with the racism, and it really is that bad, sorry. The conservatism alone probably wouldn't have chased me away though. The sort of sentiment I occasionally encountered seems to be a cultural thing, really. Ergo I left.
joelrunyon 12y ago
I've spent the majority of my time in the Midwest (mainly Chicago, but Milwaukee & Indy) and am currently on both coasts quite a bit (San Diego & NYC). I would say that the main differences are in scope and pace. The work ethic & amicability of the midwest is unparalleled pretty much anywhere. That said, as an entrepreneur or founder outside of Chicago-proper, I've found it terribly difficult to connect with any large amounts of people. There are lots of people building small businesses (but have essentially built themselves a job that is dependent on them), but not very many entrepreneurs (building systems that scale). As far as tech goes, again, it's tough to find people outside Chicago-proper (although it's getting better). That said, you do tend to have a lot more people who are content & happy, and seemingly a much more consistent pace of life. Most people on HN seem to have little familiarity with actually living or experiencing the midwest (but many of the cities are well worth visiting - especially in the summer). The biggest downside to me was the geography. I love Chicago, but for 1/2 the year it's freezing and depressing with not many outdoor activities to partake in :(
brownbat 12y ago
Yeah, spend a year in Phuket after browsing NomadList, you're culturally adventurous and a hero of frugality. Spend a year in a red state, everyone assumes you're making some terrible miscalculation.
- strictnein 12y ago
  Except with Austin, as it somehow doesn't count as being in a red state.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
chaostheory 12y ago
I lived in the South longer than I've lived in the Bay Area and I can tell you why I feel that the Bay Area's culture is better for technology (this goes for the midwest as well). In many places like the South (and Mid-West), most people tend to say variants of "Why?", "That's stupid", "That's crazy"; when you tell them what ridiculous, nonsensical or seemingly useless thing you want to build. Here in Bay Area more people say, "Why not? That sounds fun." and they either help you build it or fund it. Yeah a lot of times the things built here are crazy and make no sense... but sometimes, sometimes you end up with a Google. Of course I could be wrong, since places like Atlanta have institutions like Georgia Tech. Maybe things have changed (or will change) like in New York? ...but I haven't seen strong evidence of that yet.
- aros 12y ago
  In many places like the South (and Mid-West), most people tend to say variants of "Why?", "That's stupid", "That's crazy" Here in Bay Area more people say, "Why not? That sounds fun." Do you have any evidence to support this?

by bglazer 12y ago

rdtsc 12y ago

> Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. That is not enough. There need to be companies willing to hire. Those companies spring around where there is more talent so they don't have to relocate everyone. Where is more talent? Around more companies. It is a feedback loop. Network effect is probably the correct phrase here. Unless large tech companies perhaps move their main offices or open large offices around these Midwest or Southern cities the situation will not change. But do we see Google, Facebook, Apple moving their HQ to Cleveland, or Memphis?

bglazer 12y ago
I was going to add a comment at the end about how I fear that I may be fighting a losing battle against socioeconomic feedback loops. That's profoundly sad to me though. Concentrating all of the technological revolution's talent and wealth in a few cities will have bad effects on the rest of the country.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  Wonder if more acceptance of remote work will change this. Image a thousand or ten thousand remote engineers, getting Google salaries. That is a lot of income, a lot taxes, a lot of spending power. There are smaller cities that are called one-company towns. One university, one army base, one large manufacturing plant. That is the largest and most prominent employer in the region. If that one thing goes away, the town will suffer. Remote workers are different because they can hedge that risk. So with more remote work, eventually, perhaps we'll start seeing new patterns emerge, it could revitalize some areas. If there is more talent gathering, a positive feedback loop might start... Edit: To add, tax incentive structure can be important. Some states do a lot better in that regard. There are even special deals arranged like "If you move your headquarters here, you'll pay lower taxes" or something similar.
  - nightski 12y ago
    I work remote from a small city in the Midwest and easily bring in > 200k servicing select clients from throughout the country. It could be a lot greater if I had any interest in subcontracting/hiring or growing. While I occasionally visit SF I always get a good chuckle when my friend that lives there talks about how expensive things are and the pains of living there.
    - cageface 12y ago
      If you do have any interest in subcontracting web or iOS work please ping me. Contact info is in my profle.
  - eanplatter 12y ago
    The trouble comes when companies pay remote employees less if their cost of living is lower, or when they move to another place so they can pay people less. HP did that when they moved to Boise, ID.
tracker1 12y ago
It's worth mentioning that there are plenty of technology positions that aren't for a technology giant... For example in the Phoenix area we have Paypal, Wells Fargo, American Express, GoDaddy, Intel, Motorolla and a number of other very large companies. Many large companies have a presence in multiple cities, not just the tech hubs, and there and many teams have to operate effectively remote (from other members) anyway. Phoenix has 80-90% the pay, with significantly less cost of living... other areas can say the same. There is something to be said for being in the Silicon Valley area, but just the same, it's not necessarily better for any given company to be there than any major city with an international airport terminal.
- jobposter1234 12y ago
  I'm confused on the point you are making. Companies that hire programmers live everywhere. Given the disparate perception of a person working at Paypal, etc., compared to a Bay Area startup, even given the difference in purchasing power... Might'n't (?) we conclude that people choose the Bay Area for other reasons than salary and hiring? Why is the default to believe people in the B.A. are irrational? I say this as someone with no dog in the fight, but have observed each side arguing to defend their bias.
  - rdtsc 12y ago
    > Companies that hire programmers live everywhere. They don't though, that's the thing. Some towns don't have that many programming jobs. If you are already in a tech hub it seems just apply to 10 companies and you'd get 3 offers in 2 weeks time is not unusual. Another thing happens is the programmers already there are standing in line applying for the fews jobs available. And sometimes requirements and salaries become too low. Not all programmers are young college grads wanting to work for cool startups. There are lot of them with homes, families, kids, aging parents, a larger social network etc. > Might'n't (?) we conclude that people choose the Bay Area for other reasons than salary and hiring? It depends. I, for example, started looking around the area where I was living already for a job. Didn't find anything there so after that applied to companies all over the country. I had offers in completely different parts of the county and just picked one. Availability of other future jobs was an important factor. But I didn't have 10 placest to pick from. It was just a few. If all were in BA I would have been in BA. If they were in Montana, I would have been in Montana probably. In other words, I didn't first pick the geographic area then applied to work there, I applied to companies, and then ended up in a geographic area. I imagine if you are exceptionally good, it doesn't matter. Could probably throw a dart at the map, and then find a job there.
joelrunyon 12y ago
You're seeing quite a few big offices in Chicago (Groupon, Nokia, CareerBuilder, Cars.com, Google, Razorfish, Grubhub, etc)
driverdan 12y ago
As bglazer said, we have this magical thing called the internet that lets tech people work from anywhere in the world. No need to have a local office.
jcchin41 12y ago
1 MILLION people aren't enough to see network effects?? Is 3M [1] closer to the magic number? I moved from Boston(4M) to Cleveland(1.7M) and although the lifestyle is different, there is still way more opportunities, culture, entertainment, etc..., than anyone could absorb in a single lifetime in either place. I visit my friends in SF every year and although they make more than double my salary, they can't even come close to matching my apartment situation. There is an infinite number of things to do in any city, and I can already afford things (like a house, or an acre of land even!) that aren't even fathomable to them. I won't stay in Cleveland forever, simply because I'd like to experience other cities, but I can't say SF is even in my top three. SF is a great place, but I'd like to find one of the still relatively "undiscovered" great places that isn't completely saturated. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_are...
gradi3nt 12y ago
Epic Systems (digital healthcare records) employs 5,000 people just outside Madison, WI. Soon to be 10,000 according to their roadmap. I wouldn't be surprised if other corporations looking to hire gobs of college grads start popping up (or already have popped up) near other small midwest cities.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  What other ones employ 10k software developers? If Epic rejected your application or laid you off. How many other software jobs would there be in the area?
  - jrjarrett 12y ago
    It's not "if", it's "when."

lkrubner 12y ago

Your view of this is exactly backwards. To get an accurate view of what is happening, start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely? The kind that needs constant face-to-face contact, especially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need to be in New York or San Francisco.

wwweston 12y ago
> start with the assumption that all computer programming can be done remotely, from China or India. Now ask yourself, what kind of computer programming can not be done remotely? Just about any kind of software development can be done remotely, really. It's really a function of the skills possessed by everyone involved in a distributed team vs the obstacles distribution may or may not present (and there's different degrees of remoteness -- same city, same time zone, same country, same hemisphere all present different challenges) > specially to maintain the relationship links between investors and engineers via a CEO. Those jobs need to be in New York or San Francisco. Unless the CEO doesn't (or your customers don't) live in SF and NY. I suppose the next line is "well, the investors aren't going to want to visit flyover country." It turns out -- strangely enough -- there are even investors who don't live in SF and NY, though sometimes they strangely don't all want to invest in a slick social deals pyramid or revenue-free chat app or whatever else is hot at the moment...
- jessedhillon 12y ago
  ...though sometimes they strangely don't all want to invest in a slick social deals pyramid or revenue-free chat app or whatever else is hot at the moment... You can't argue with returns, and "slick" VC returns trump Smallville's every day of the week.
  - wwweston 12y ago
    One "smallville" startup I worked for turned about $2M in investment into a $60M sale. How'd Groupon's investors make out on their returns?

sporkenfang 12y ago

My friend, I have absolutely nothing against you, or the majority of people who live in Tennessee. In fact, the great majority of my family live in the part of the South that bleeds into the Midwest... and I live as far west as I can possibly get from them because there's a fundamental disconnect in terms of belief system and interests between them and myself, and between myself and the greater population of conservative areas such as but certainly not limited to Memphis. I'm not even all that liberal politically (politics are probably a source where disconnect might come from for some hackers), I'm pretty middle-of-the road as far as extremes to the American right and left are concerned -- but when I lived in the South, I felt distinctly uncomfortable and out of place. In California and the PNW and even Colorado, I don't generally feel this disconnect with my surroundings; I feel more connected to the place and with a fraction of the populace greater than just a few individuals. This is 100% personal, but I don't think I'm entirely alone in expressing these sentiments. I moved away because I was sick of always being uncomfortable, which didn't contribute to my quality of life, nor to that of the people who were probably mutually made uncomfortable. & again, by SF or NY standards, I'm not strange/liberal/letting my freak flag fly in the slightest. I'm (mostly) white, but therein lies part of the problem I have with the Midwest and the South.

bglazer 12y ago
I certainly understand. I do get sick of feeling like a weird liberal occasionally. But really, is it that bad? Also, there's clear evidence [1][2] that people are leaving "mixed" communities to live in areas that are more homogenous and in line with their politics and culture. I don't want to be a part of that, as I consider it a problem. [1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/13/people-move-to-places-that-fit-their-politics-and-its-helping-republicans/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/13/pe... [2] http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-3-political-polarization-and-personal-life/pp-2014-06-12-polarization-3-02/ http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/section-3-political-p...
- sporkenfang 12y ago
  Again, this is personal, but people in the South and Midwest seem to generally have and occasionally let fly... sentiment... against those who don't appear fully white on first glance. Yeah, combine the conservatism with the racism, and it really is that bad, sorry. The conservatism alone probably wouldn't have chased me away though. The sort of sentiment I occasionally encountered seems to be a cultural thing, really. Ergo I left.

joelrunyon 12y ago

I've spent the majority of my time in the Midwest (mainly Chicago, but Milwaukee & Indy) and am currently on both coasts quite a bit (San Diego & NYC). I would say that the main differences are in scope and pace. The work ethic & amicability of the midwest is unparalleled pretty much anywhere. That said, as an entrepreneur or founder outside of Chicago-proper, I've found it terribly difficult to connect with any large amounts of people. There are lots of people building small businesses (but have essentially built themselves a job that is dependent on them), but not very many entrepreneurs (building systems that scale). As far as tech goes, again, it's tough to find people outside Chicago-proper (although it's getting better). That said, you do tend to have a lot more people who are content & happy, and seemingly a much more consistent pace of life. Most people on HN seem to have little familiarity with actually living or experiencing the midwest (but many of the cities are well worth visiting - especially in the summer). The biggest downside to me was the geography. I love Chicago, but for 1/2 the year it's freezing and depressing with not many outdoor activities to partake in :(

brownbat 12y ago

Yeah, spend a year in Phuket after browsing NomadList, you're culturally adventurous and a hero of frugality. Spend a year in a red state, everyone assumes you're making some terrible miscalculation.

strictnein 12y ago
Except with Austin, as it somehow doesn't count as being in a red state.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

chaostheory 12y ago

I lived in the South longer than I've lived in the Bay Area and I can tell you why I feel that the Bay Area's culture is better for technology (this goes for the midwest as well). In many places like the South (and Mid-West), most people tend to say variants of "Why?", "That's stupid", "That's crazy"; when you tell them what ridiculous, nonsensical or seemingly useless thing you want to build. Here in Bay Area more people say, "Why not? That sounds fun." and they either help you build it or fund it. Yeah a lot of times the things built here are crazy and make no sense... but sometimes, sometimes you end up with a Google. Of course I could be wrong, since places like Atlanta have institutions like Georgia Tech. Maybe things have changed (or will change) like in New York? ...but I haven't seen strong evidence of that yet.

aros 12y ago
In many places like the South (and Mid-West), most people tend to say variants of "Why?", "That's stupid", "That's crazy" Here in Bay Area more people say, "Why not? That sounds fun." Do you have any evidence to support this?