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Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyo

Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their opponents something to focus on that makes sense. I've never seen a benefit from doing that. Don't give them an inch if you truly want change.

pron 12y ago
I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term. People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but simply sexist (and we all are to some degree) -- because that's how we've been trained to be -- can benefit from me pointing out this difference in how we respond to stories by women differently from those by men. My goal is not to maintain the moral high ground (which I know I possess in this case anyway), but simply to educate those who wish to learn. Change will be made through education of the "innocent sexists"; not by reforming misogynists.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  I'm not sure what the point of replying to my comment is if you're not going to answer my question to you. Here it is again if you missed it: Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? I see a lot these sorts of threads end up with people talking past each other and not really responding to each other questions. Let's try not to do that. We can maybe move forward in the conversation and perhaps you can educate me on the topic. But if you don't answer straight-forward yes or now question I'm just left wondering if I should take any education I receive from you seriously.
  - pron 12y ago
    I think I've answered it, but I'll answer again. If the victim calls it rape, I am not going to argue with her, because there are much more important things to discuss than legal definitions. I am not part of the legal bureaucracy, I don't know the law, and besides, the laws are different in different places. When a victim says she was raped she doesn't use the word to match the penal code of whatever jurisdiction she's in, but to describe her experience. As I am not a lawyer, and not discussing legal proceedings, I will use whatever name the victim uses, because, at least for the time being, that's the only name that can be used. What I think is terrible, though, is that when a fellow worker in my industry describes a horrible experience, some people's first response is to discuss the precise legal definition of said horrible experience. It does not surprise me, though, as "everybody's a lawyer" is a very common sexist response to such events. You'll notice that stories by men are not met with the same discourse. In any case, the very first thing for someone wishing to learn how sexism and racism work, is by reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)
jrochkind1 12y ago
Are you saying that it's important to argue about whether the word 'rape' is the right word or not? (For a specific occurence we have virtually no details about, what do we even have to argue about?) Why does this matter for the topic matter of the essay? For real. Why is the most important thing to discuss, in response to the issues raised in the essay, technical or legal definitions of the word 'rape'? Apparently most important thing to a great many HN commenters as it's incredibly well-represented this unusually enormous comments thread. Seriously, I'm asking, why is this such an important or interesting point to so many here, the legal definition or rape? I thought one of the most interesting and important points in the OP was about moving away from concerns about legal liability and towards concerns about keeping people safe and treated with dignity -- because the former has not accomplished the latter.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  No, that's not what I'm saying but I don't think I can safely ignore the rest of your comment even if it is based on an incorrect interpretation of my comment. Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? Please quote the section of my comment that gave you that idea. You've made a baseless assumption of what I was saying and went on a tirade. This is why I hate these sorts of topics on HN. The community morphs into an hot-tempered accusatory group of individuals who hiss at anyone who sounds like they may not be on their side.
  - jrochkind1 12y ago
    > Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? The part where you engaged in argument about whether rape was the right word (for some hypothetical undescribed situation), arguing it was important not to use it unless it was... was where I got that idea. So, the whole comment. I'm sorry if I got the wrong idea, and at any rate I acknowledge I was reacting to the direction of this collective thread with many participants, not just specifically to your post. In fact, I wrongly assumed you were the same person who participated in the replied-to replied-to post, without checking the names. I am also sorry that you feel your safety was threatened by my post, requiring you to reply to restore your safety, my intent was not to threaten your safety in any way.

pron 12y ago

I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term. People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but simply sexist (and we all are to some degree) -- because that's how we've been trained to be -- can benefit from me pointing out this difference in how we respond to stories by women differently from those by men. My goal is not to maintain the moral high ground (which I know I possess in this case anyway), but simply to educate those who wish to learn. Change will be made through education of the "innocent sexists"; not by reforming misogynists.

xtrumanx 12y ago
I'm not sure what the point of replying to my comment is if you're not going to answer my question to you. Here it is again if you missed it: Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? I see a lot these sorts of threads end up with people talking past each other and not really responding to each other questions. Let's try not to do that. We can maybe move forward in the conversation and perhaps you can educate me on the topic. But if you don't answer straight-forward yes or now question I'm just left wondering if I should take any education I receive from you seriously.
- pron 12y ago
  I think I've answered it, but I'll answer again. If the victim calls it rape, I am not going to argue with her, because there are much more important things to discuss than legal definitions. I am not part of the legal bureaucracy, I don't know the law, and besides, the laws are different in different places. When a victim says she was raped she doesn't use the word to match the penal code of whatever jurisdiction she's in, but to describe her experience. As I am not a lawyer, and not discussing legal proceedings, I will use whatever name the victim uses, because, at least for the time being, that's the only name that can be used. What I think is terrible, though, is that when a fellow worker in my industry describes a horrible experience, some people's first response is to discuss the precise legal definition of said horrible experience. It does not surprise me, though, as "everybody's a lawyer" is a very common sexist response to such events. You'll notice that stories by men are not met with the same discourse. In any case, the very first thing for someone wishing to learn how sexism and racism work, is by reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(social_and_political)

jrochkind1 12y ago

Are you saying that it's important to argue about whether the word 'rape' is the right word or not? (For a specific occurence we have virtually no details about, what do we even have to argue about?) Why does this matter for the topic matter of the essay? For real. Why is the most important thing to discuss, in response to the issues raised in the essay, technical or legal definitions of the word 'rape'? Apparently most important thing to a great many HN commenters as it's incredibly well-represented this unusually enormous comments thread. Seriously, I'm asking, why is this such an important or interesting point to so many here, the legal definition or rape? I thought one of the most interesting and important points in the OP was about moving away from concerns about legal liability and towards concerns about keeping people safe and treated with dignity -- because the former has not accomplished the latter.

xtrumanx 12y ago
No, that's not what I'm saying but I don't think I can safely ignore the rest of your comment even if it is based on an incorrect interpretation of my comment. Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? Please quote the section of my comment that gave you that idea. You've made a baseless assumption of what I was saying and went on a tirade. This is why I hate these sorts of topics on HN. The community morphs into an hot-tempered accusatory group of individuals who hiss at anyone who sounds like they may not be on their side.
- jrochkind1 12y ago
  > Where'd you get the inkling that I thought it was important to argue whether to word rape is the right word? The part where you engaged in argument about whether rape was the right word (for some hypothetical undescribed situation), arguing it was important not to use it unless it was... was where I got that idea. So, the whole comment. I'm sorry if I got the wrong idea, and at any rate I acknowledge I was reacting to the direction of this collective thread with many participants, not just specifically to your post. In fact, I wrongly assumed you were the same person who participated in the replied-to replied-to post, without checking the names. I am also sorry that you feel your safety was threatened by my post, requiring you to reply to restore your safety, my intent was not to threaten your safety in any way.