13 ms·

In Defense of the Midwest

189 points by ntietz 12y ago

gjmulhol 12y ago
I guess I find it a bit off-putting that a blog post trying to dispel stereotypes about a geographic region stoops to saying things like "On both coasts, the pace of life is really, really high: you just go, go, go and work constantly." This might be the norm in New York and Silicon Valley, but the south isn't this way, and I have been to towns as far east as MA that have laid back cultures — visit the town of Wellesley, MA if you want to see that. I am not disagreeing that there are great things about living anywhere, but trying to overturn stereotyping by stereotyping doesn't ring very true to me.
- avasylev 12y ago
  Wellesley MA is one of the most expensive suburbs of Boston with home prices above million, most of IT guys would have to work day and night to live in that laid back culture :)
  - gjmulhol 12y ago
    Not arguing that it is cheap, just saying that the generalization that everywhere near the coast is fast moving is incorrect. Cheaper options include Wilmington, NC, Raleigh, NC, and Asheville, NC -- I skew NC because I lived there for several years and loved it (and I am now based in the Bay Area).
larrywright 12y ago
As a fellow Midwesterner, I say "Amen". I live halfway between Chicago and St. Louis - a two hour drive in either direction. We've got everything we need, including great schools and tons of dining and entertainment options. I own a 2500 square foot house that will be completely paid for in 10 years, and my mortgage is ~$700/month. I've been to both coasts and many large cities in the US and abroad. I'd still rather live here than anywhere else.
- micro-ram 12y ago
  Agreed. Hi neighbor. Have 200mbit fiber now. Getting gigabit fiber in a few days. Welcome to Central Illinois. NO TRAFFIC!
  - monksy 12y ago
    WTF?! It's a struggle just to get gigabit to the home in Chicago.
  - turbostyler 12y ago
    If the two best things I could say about my city were fast internet and no traffic, I'd kill myself - or move, I guess.
  - larrywright 12y ago
    Whoa. I don't have anywhere near that. Are you in Champaign-Urbana?
seany 12y ago
Also, gun laws aren't total shit like they are on most of the coast.
- xxpor 12y ago
  Who cares? Honestly. If that's decides where you move... I honestly feel extremely sorry for you.
  - kxo 12y ago
    Ah yes, feel sorry for someone who chooses to live where their rights are not (or are less) infringed upon.
hapless 12y ago
No one who has done his research doubts that Cleveland can be a really nice place to live. It's a charming midsize city with lots of good stuff happening. Unfortunately, that's often not how we choose our geographic location. America's major cities (Chicago, Los Angeles, New York) and one midsize city with a special industry focus (the bay area) offer almost inconceivable economic opportunity to people in HN's line of work. Relative to population, their software and technology industries are tens of times the size of Cleveland. If you are a schoolteacher (one of the most common and widely distributed white collar jobs), Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity. It's telling that the essay's author is a 100% remote employee of a firm in the bay area. Not even an ardent defender of the (non-Chicago) midwest was able to build his ideal career there.
- paulhauggis 12y ago
  "Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity." I live in the midwest and visited Cleveland last year. Outside of about two streets downtown, it's pretty much a ghost town at night. Many, many businesses have left over the past 5 years because of the economy.
vasco_ 12y ago
Having lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years, I can say that I miss a lot about that City. I miss the seasons, the people and the landscape, and in Pittsburgh, there are a lot of great technology companies. Nothing compared to SF, of course, but you can definitely have a great life there. The thing that I can't overcome is the lack of an Ocean. It is very to beat a beach sunset after work.
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rdtsc 12y ago
Ah but it is not a defense of Midwest as a workplace. It is a defense of the Midwest as a living place and effectively working on the West cost, and by implication, getting a West coast salary. If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed. However I found tech jobs wise Ohio was a shithole. The number of available jobs, the salaries, the expectations were just not there when I was looking. Like he said, the people are great, I had to leave a lot of friends and family behind, which hurt. The food, art scene, music wasn't bad, so agree on those fronts. Edit: Interesting, getting downvoted without any comments. Not sure if this is an instinctive defense "he is attacking out Midwest pride"... Like I said, I like Midwest, and would have rather not had to leave. Unfortunately companies I got offers from didn't allow remote work.
- klipt 12y ago
  > If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed. I'd say it's a pretty great arrangement ... but probably difficult to pull off. Which means you're screwed if you lose your job. Doubly screwed if you already have a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work.
  - empthought 12y ago
    You can pay for a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work on a third of the West Coast salary needed.
    - klipt 12y ago
      Well yeah, I could buy a house in some places with just 1-2 years of frugally saved West Coast salary. Question is, how would I get a job after moving there...?
bglazer 12y ago
I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd. I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded, smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the first to decry the inefficiencies of having one or two (SF and NY) annointed "tech hubs" and actively eschewing every other place. Why crowd every damn programmer in the world into the SF bay area when we have the internet?! That's the whole point of the internet! There's also the cultural argument. Tech work has tended to attract people who are part of non-mainstream culture. Tech hub cities attract these people because they already have every culture and subculture imaginable and a society that mostly tolerates them. There's also a perception that other places don't have this and that their particular affiliation would invite outright hostility. That's mostly not true. Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. Again though, I think that choosing where you live based on whether or not you can surround yourself with exclusively like minded people is counter to the hacker ethos. Let's not forget that Silicon Valley was not always what it is now. People built the place, and the rest of the US and the world could benefit from people who attempted to do the same elsewhere.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  > Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. That is not enough. There need to be companies willing to hire. Those companies spring around where there is more talent so they don't have to relocate everyone. Where is more talent? Around more companies. It is a feedback loop. Network effect is probably the correct phrase here. Unless large tech companies perhaps move their main offices or open large offices around these Midwest or Southern cities the situation will not change. But do we see Google, Facebook, Apple moving their HQ to Cleveland, or Memphis?
  - bglazer 12y ago
    I was going to add a comment at the end about how I fear that I may be fighting a losing battle against socioeconomic feedback loops. That's profoundly sad to me though. Concentrating all of the technological revolution's talent and wealth in a few cities will have bad effects on the rest of the country.
meow_mix 12y ago
There's also a really great budding startup scene in Columbus centered around Ohio State. The midwest really shouldn't be discounted for work, especially considering how cramped the valley's becoming.
- loganfrederick 12y ago
  Do you work/live in Columbus? I graduated from OSU in 2012 and it's great to hear on HN other people who feel the city is exciting.
  - meow_mix 12y ago
    I'm a student at Ohio State and I work part time as a web contractor. This summer I'll be in Seattle as an intern at Amazon though, so I'm excited to see the difference.
puls 12y ago
Carnegie Mellon is absolutely in the midwest. Pennsylvania is a big state.
- dasil003 12y ago
  Pennsylvania the 33rd largest state. It is definitely not a large state by western standards. I guess if you consider NYC the center of the universe then maybe it's the Midwest, but as a Midwesterner (from Minneapolis) I'm not really feeling that.
  - fjk 12y ago
    I think puls meant that Pennsylvania is a big state in the sense that Philadelphia is considered to be a part of the east coast while Pittsburgh (home of Carnegie Mellon) is often considered to be a part of the midwest. In that sense, Pennsylvania is a big state. Perhaps "wide" is a better descriptor. Pittsburgh is kind of a buffer between the east coast and the midwest. Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it feels more midwestern.
    - throwaway_1jl 12y ago
      > Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it feels more midwestern. I grew up in Illinois/Missouri and lived in Pittsburgh. This is spot on.
- BrandonM 12y ago
  I agree. I grew up in Ohio, and to me, Pittsburgh and the rest of western PA is part of the Midwest. It has the same farmland/steel-town culture that Ohio does. Obviously Philadelphia is not, so I would argue that the dividing line is somewhere in the middle of the state.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    Well, see, this kind of depends on your definition of "Midwest". I grew up a fair distance west of Denver, and to me, the dividing line between East and Midwest is Chicago. The "real" west begins at Denver. This neatly divides the country into approximately thirds. But to say that Ohio and western PA are "Midwest" because they're west of the Appalachians... bah. You easterners need to get out more. And if you think steel town culture makes you part of the Midwest, well... come west of Chicago and look around. You don't see many steel towns out here. I mean, I suppose that's the labels that you grew up on, and it's how the locals label themselves, so on that level it's hard to argue with. But anything that includes "West" as part of the name (or even "Mid") that includes Pittsburgh... look at a map of the country, and then explain to me how that makes any sense at all.
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jdg 12y ago
There is a huge difference between founding a startup in the midwest and being an engineer in the midwest. I believe that gets lost in a lot of the rhetoric from both sides. I love hiring engineers in the midwest. Consistently great work ethics, etc, etc. On the other hand, if you're an entrepreneur, you don't live in SF and you're building a consumer internet startup, you're fucked. Primarily because your access to capital is so limited it's ridiculous. Most people that live in the midwest aren't able to put in the time required to build out the relationships needed to successfully fundraise in the Valley.
- bbcbasic 12y ago
  The other side of the coin: If you live in SF and your VC backed startup doesn't experience massive growth then you're fucked. In a cheaper city you can be ramen profitable, or a lifestyle business, or just a regular business or whatever.
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- ryanSrich 12y ago
  I'd have to disagree. At least based on the companies I've observed coming out of the midwest (including the one I work for) [1]. 1. http://www.seed-db.com/accelerators/view?acceleratorid=263012 http://www.seed-db.com/accelerators/view?acceleratorid=26301...
- dirtae 12y ago
  Yik Yak is a consumer Internet startup that just raised $61 million, and is based in Atlanta, GA: http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/02/yik-yaks-new-funding-round-confirmed-as-sequoia-leads-61m-investment/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/02/yik-yaks-new-funding-round-...
kdefranco 12y ago
As a native Clevelander I can fully back this piece. I came back to Cleveland upon graduating college in May and have not regretted my decision one bit. While the resources are nowhere as easy to come by as in the Valley there still is a great startup community that's been building over the past few years. The cheap cost of living, beautiful seasons and plethora of things to do year-round have me recruiting college friends to come join me instead of vice versa.
- re_todd 12y ago
  I'm tempted to move to a cheaper city inland, but I've heard horror stories of people trying to get to work when it snows. Is it extremely difficult to get to work in the winter?
  - shyy 12y ago
    No, not at all. Every once in a while there’s an extremely bad storm that makes it difficult, but for the most part the infrastructure (plows, salt trucks, etc.) has adapted to the climate such that it’s not a problem 97% of the time.
    - kevan 12y ago
      Minnesotan here, everyone in my office takes their laptops home if we think it'll snow. If it snows during the commute then things slow down, but there's armies of plow trucks and things get cleared quickly.
  - zhte415 12y ago
    Another part of the world, but where snow sometimes happens. Utilities stay up - water, electricity, internet. It is not a big deal. People work from home and understand this; those that must go to work arrive late and go home early, this is understood too. Just have a padded coat.
    - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
      And good tires. And a snow scraper in your car.
kzisme 12y ago
I feel a lot of the same feelings the author felt while doing his undergrad, and it's nice to know other people feel the same way about their geographic location. I'm also from Ohio and completing my undergrad, and considering where to possibly move for a career. (If that means much at all)
fown9 12y ago
In Defense of Silicon Valley 1. World class food. There is no way you can get the same quality of chinese,japanese,korean,indian,french,italian,californian,thai,vietnamese in Cleveland. 2. People creating things in coffeeshops on the weekends, instead of wasting life watching TV or drinking beer. You only get one life in this great country. 3. It's not ice freezing cold 4. It's not superficial (like LA), not money worshipping (like NY), not power hungry (like DC), not gun/football crazy (like Texas), not corrupt (like Florida) 5. Diversity 6. Tech, Venture networks 7. Silicon Valley people are great people. The entrepreneurs are supportive of each other, since they know how much pain it is to start a company. The people who take risks moving across country to here are brave and adaptive and optimistic. (instead of rotting away on a couch in midwest complaining about lack of jobs)
- vasilipupkin 12y ago
  We should not compare Silicon Valley to Cleveland. Why don't we compare it to Chicago? The reason the Cleveland comparison is somewhat unfair is that Cleveland is a small city, so we are not comparing apples to apples
L_Rahman 12y ago
I used to believe in the Midwest. Graduated in 2014, moved to Detroit to work for a hardware startup. Live and work downtown, and the professional experience has been phenomenal. However, the issue that's so frequently left out when discussing the palatability of the Midwest is what it's like to be an Asian American here when you've grown up in a major city on the East or West coast. And the reality is that it's really difficult. Race goes from being one aspect of your identity to an omnipresent difference that you feel constantly. On the vast majority of days that I spend here, I'm the only person of South Asian origin that I run into. This tends to lend itself to a sense of isolation that's difficult to capture in words.
- analog31 12y ago
  I live in the Midwest, but visited a colleague at another site owned by my employer, in California. She echoed your sentiment. I have to say that if there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to enthusiastically endorse living in the Midwest, it's the racism.
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    > I have to say that if there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to enthusiastically endorse living in the Midwest, it's the racism. The midwest includes a broad swath of states. While I've encountered some racism throughout the area, I'd be hard-pressed to see how it's vastly different than any other racism that permeates US culture.
    - lstyls 12y ago
      True, the midwest as a region is broad and well-defined. But I'm guessing what the poster referred to us the midwest north of the mason-dixon line. The upper midwest has its own breed of racism. It is quiet but built in to the socio-economic fabric of cities there in a way even worse than the south in many ways. I'd like to point out that midwestern cities are among the most segragated in the U.S.[1] Minnesota, the place where I grew up, is famous for having one of the best public school systems in the country. What you won't hear Minnesotans talking about, though, it the ugly fact that Minnesota has the highest discrepancy in educational outcomes of any city in the country. If you're from there, its easy to see why. There are exclusive suburbs with incredible schools for the local upper-class kids. But if you go to the inner city the schools are a joke. The difference is shocking in person. The worst part is, there is not even a conversation in the upper midwest about race. The dominant narrative is that its a southern problem. [1] http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-segregated-cities-in-the-u-s/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-segreg... Extra reading: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the_worst_financial_racial_inequality_in_america_according_to_study.php http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if-minneapolis-is-so-great-why-is-it-so-bad-for-black-people/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if... *Edited for completeness
msutherl 12y ago
(1) Cleveland gets all the Broadway shows once they go off Broadway, but at about half the cost, (2) We have great music here, including the world-renowned Cleveland Jazz Orchestra, and tons of bands come through, (3) We have some great sports teams (hi, OSU) and a ton of great sports fans (hi, Browns fans), (4) We have great food at very affordable prices Yes, exactly. As someone who lives in New York, this is the very definition of "in the middle of nowhere." Your idea of "culture" is Broadway shows, the local jazz orchestra, professional sports, and restaurants. To me, that's all stuff for tourists. Even San Francisco is culturally lacking by New York, LA, London standards. Fine if you're satisfied by mass-cultural products, but the reality is that most cultural producers migrate to metropolitan centers once they reach a certain level of success and the second-tier cities are left with the loyal, the mediocre, and the novice. That's not to say that there's nothing interesting going on in second-tier cities, but there's maybe 2 orders of magnitude less activity and the ceiling is far lower.
- tlarkworthy 12y ago
  Ha, scathing. But yeah, if a guy has not lived round the world before deciding Ohio is the best place to live, then it's not a very convincing argument.
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    > If a guy has not lived round the world before deciding Ohio is the best place to live, then it's not a very convincing argument. I would venture to guess that you haven't been to Ohio. I'm not claiming that it's an epicenter of amazingness, but I can count at least one person that's decided that's the case (Dave Chappelle).
    - ChainsawSurgery 12y ago
      I'd say that's heavily biased by the fact that Chappelle spent lots of time growing up in Ohio (and specifically Yellow Springs). Lots of people have seemingly irrationally strong attachments to their hometowns - not quite the same as randomly stumbling upon OKC and deciding it's what you've wanted all along, you know? And Chappelle's probably not the greatest example, since he very famously got fed up with his celebrity status and wanted to retreat from the world a little. Surprised you didn't go to Lebron instead.
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mkoble11 12y ago
maybe i'm reading too much into it, but i find the title bothersome. why start with the premise that the midwest needs "defense"? there's great stuff happening here, and anyone with an open mind would recognize that. let's talk up our successes instead of being bashful because we're "not SF".
pnathan 12y ago
When I think of the Midwest these days, I think of St Louis/Ferguson. I think of the price for housing and how it reflects demand. I live in Seattle, so my viewpoint is slightly different, but, eh. I used to live in a rural place, and I don't plan to go back, for a long time, if ever. Let me pick apart this article a bit, and demonstrate how skew these high points are from things I care about. * Housing cost. That's where the pay difference comes in. And my $800/mo in student loans doesn't change if I live on the coast or in the middle of nowhere. So it's actually better for me, because the proportional cost of fixed payments goes way down. * Broadway shows, okay. But wouldn't you rather be in a vibrant place where creation happens, than be the "second hand"? * Same for music. Do you want to be in the place where creation happens, or a pit stop on the tour? * Sportsball. Meh. * Foodwise, my mind was blown by the quality difference between St. Louis and Seattle/SF when I visited recently. Maybe I hit the wrong joints, but STL had terrible food. Absolutely shockingly worse. I'll have to shake down some people for more reccs next time. * Seattle is incredibly friendly and polite. Drivers in the city are probably the friendliest I've ever come across. While it retains the historical Scandinavia reserve, people are really just decent here in general. SF is famous for its collaboration between businesses. * I don't even understand the idea of wanting to turn off work on a daily basis. I left that attitude behind me when I last worked fast food. The 9-5er attitude is "yuck". * The author is generally ignoring the intense network effects of having zillions of nerds in the same city. --- Anyway. Not that TFA is wrong. But its priorities are very skew from mine. I want to live in a place where technology is a significant lifestyle, where nerds are your neighbor, where programmers aren't weirdos. I want to live in a place with tons of cultures colliding and the resultant froth. I want to live in a place where there are new companies forming weekly. I want to live in a place where the optimism is in the air, where young people are flooding around the town with new ideas, new thinking, and crazy things no sane adult would do, and tech is in the heart of all that. Where the next thing is being done at 3 in the morning fuelled by coffee, math, and being young and foolish. Maybe that means I never will leave Seattle/SF/The-next-big-thing until I retire, but I'm okay with that.
- BrandonM 12y ago
  * Same for music. Do you want to be in the place where creation happens, or a pit stop on the tour? This one is bullshit. Plenty of bands came from Ohio, including OAR, the Foo Fighters, and the Black Keys. IMO, the live music scene in Columbus is way better than SF, with a diverse group of talented bands playing every night of the week.
msoad 12y ago
For an immigrant Midwest is though. In Bay Area, there are tons of groups of people from countries you've never heard of them. And funny is, all those people are working in technology so in their time together they have a lot of shared interests to talk about. One other side effect of having more diverse demographics is people are less bios against ethnicity. Because people are exposed to a lot of people from other ethnicities.
- justin66 12y ago
  The city the author was talking about, Cleveland, is a city with a 51% black population. A suburb I live next to in the area has a Jewish population comparable to an Israeli city (over 90%). I'm pretty sure we've got the largest Slovenian population outside of Slovenia. I just got a graduate degree from a college in Cleveland and roughly 80% of my fellow CS students were ethnically Indian, with the rest a pretty random mix from around the world. I guess I could go on. In contrast, I honestly never felt like the urban techie parts of the Bay Area were hugely diverse when I lived there. Lots of really interesting people but there are much more interesting places to live as far as non-tech stuff goes.
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justin66 12y ago
For those in the Bay Area, I guess it's worth noting that people from Oakland tend to have an affinity for Cleveland and vice versa. Something I've noticed over the years. Some of the author's points seem valid but a bit odd (mentioning the Cleveland Jazz Orchestra as being "world-renowned" instead of the Cleveland Orchestra? No mention of the art museums? Mention the Browns several times but not the Cavaliers, especially this year?) but overall it's a good piece. The thing that's missing is this: what makes Cleveland genuinely interesting is that it's a two-hundred year old city which is still figuring out what it's going to be when it grows up. It really could go a few different ways.
godarderik 12y ago
This article is particularly relevant to me. I’m originally from a suburb of Cleveland less than half an hour from where the OP works, and I’m currently an undergraduate at Harvard. There are definitely some differences between the areas, and I can’t say that I have the overwhelmingly positive vision of the Midwest that the author of this post has. My feeling is that people in the Midwest are more content with the status quo — they understand what a comfortable life is, and they seek to achieve that. Life is very safe and sheltered, especially growing up there, and I feel that my peers from elsewhere have been exposed to so much more of life than I have. The Midwest also lacks the intellectual vibrancy that a place like Boston does. It just seems to me that there are overwhelming concentration of smart, ambitious people from the coasts compared to those from the Midwest. Personally, I love it here in Boston, way more than I do at home. Ohio was a good, safe place to grow up, and I imagine that it’s a great place to raise a family. However, I couldn’t imagine spending any more of my life there than I already have without dying from boredom or a creeping sense of mediocrity.
- mturmon 12y ago
  This rings true. I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City and, looking back, see it as a safe friendly place to grow up. At uni, I was friends with a group of expat Manhattanites (not wealthy though) and similar to what you say, they looked at St. Louis as a quaint toy city. Many inconclusive dorm debates were held on the merits of the two environments. Of course neither of us could give ground, so similar to what you read nearby, we were talking past each other. Too defensive. But that was 20 years and several cities ago. I still visit the Midwest and enjoy family and a few friends. I experience it as not open to newness, to difference, or to the exceptional. These things are just not valued. It is valued to be a regular person and to be comfortable and respectable. This won't work for me. I love LA, where I live now, and have great respect for the Bay Area as well.
- vasilipupkin 12y ago
  I think Midwest may be sort of a misnomer term. Chicago is midwest too and it definitely doesn't lack "cultural vibrancy". I think what you are referring to is more small town atmosphere rather than Midwest per se
ggreer 12y ago
I think the main reason the author prefers the midwest is because he was raised there. Property values and migration flows attest to people generally preferring the coasts. I've lived in a lot of places: The UK, Alabama, Illinois (for a short time), Guam, Washington, New York, and California. Not having a home town, I think I'm better positioned to evaluate these places. My least favorite region is the south, followed closely by the midwest. The reason is simple: overt racism. Nowhere else have I seen such blatant and hateful discrimination. Even if the weather, food, jobs, and night life improved, I'd still shy away from living there.
- justin66 12y ago
  > Not having a home town, I think I'm better positioned to evaluate these places. My least favorite region is the south, followed closely by the midwest. The reason is simple: overt racism. I'm not saying you're wrong but it's worth noting that the black population has been increasing in the south for a while due to migration. It's an interesting trend. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25south.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25south.html?pagewanted...
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  >Property values and migration flows attest to people generally preferring the coasts. Actually, migration flows show people preferring the Sun Belt, despite the lower salaries and productivity rates. The coasts simply can't build housing fast enough to both accept migrants and maintain their own native-born populations.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  > The reason is simple: overt racism. Nowhere else have I seen such blatant and hateful discrimination I'm not white, and I've lived in the South for most of my life. From my experience, the South is less racist than either the West Coast or East Coast. Why? Because minorities are forced to hang out with people that aren't their own ethnic group. When this happens the larger ethnic groups become familiar with your own ethnic group as well as some of the culture that comes with it. Conversely in the larger metros in both the East and West coasts, this seems to happen a lot less often because there are enough ethnic minorities here so that there's a lot less mixing socially. Consequently, I've actually been the subject of inadvertent racism in the Bay Area at work. There wasn't any malice behind it, just ignorance, but it was really unpleasant and that would be inconceivable in a Southern metro (from my experience).
forrestthewoods 12y ago
You don't need to defend the midwest. Most people outside of San Francisco couldn't give less of a shit about San Francisco. The three primary smells of SF are urine, human feces, and weed. I think Seattle folk are becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of moving down there. Some dream of it of course, but I think they're decreasing in number. Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that simply won't move to the bay. And SpaceX is starting a 1000 person studio soon. Nashville is a good city. I hope it's tech scene continue to grow. Most west coast folk wouldn't dream of living in country music capital of the world. That's might even be a good thing. More opportunities for new people. Lots of great places to live in the world. SF wouldn't even be in my top 100. So at least take refuge in knowing you're far from alone.
- xxpor 12y ago
  >Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that simply won't move to the bay I think a lot of that is driven by Amazon, because they built the downtown offices. People get used to working downtown and they want to stay there. Easy commutes from Capitol Hill/QA/etc. Now Facebook is expanding downtown, Google Fremont is growing, etc. because people refuse to commute to the east side. As opposed to the Valley, where your options are (except for Twitter and mostly startups) 1) Work in the valley, and live the suburbs. Yuck. Pay a billion dollars for the privlege. 2) Work in the valley and live in SF. Pay a billion^2 dollars for the privilege, and have a shit commute (sitting on a private bus is still sitting on a bus). No thanks. That being said, I went to Case Western and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle.
  - freyr 12y ago
    > and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle. At some point you might decide you don't need to jump from company to company, or from job to job. You'll realize you really only need a good job at a decent company. And there's a good chance that such a job exists in Cleveland, or Dallas, or Charlotte, or wherever. At times, you might feel like you're missing out on the action. But then you'll look at your bank account or your house or your kid's college fund, which hasn't been being sucked dry by a ridiculously inflated cost-of-living, and you'll come back to your senses.
mahyarm 12y ago
If you bought your house at 2010, it's not that bad.
datashovel 12y ago
I spent the first ~10 years of my web-dev career in Los Angeles / Orange County area, and South Florida tri-county area. Since 2009 (with a brief stint in Atlanta) I've been an independent consultant in Ohio. Not just the midwest, but a town of only a few thousand. The larger local businesses don't just have parking lots. They have built parking structures for Amish horse and buggies. I've never in my career felt more productive and fulfilled than I have since doing this. It was the best career choice I've ever made. The only complaint I have is that not just my local area, but Ohio and surrounding states in general seem to still be in the equivalent of the dark ages when it comes to technology and the web. I've lucked into some really good, steady clients who appreciate my work, so I know it's out there. The ratio of tech-savvy businesses is definitely obviously lower than you would expect to find in New York or San Francisco. I imagine it's only going to get better though, which I'm really looking forward to.
shyy 12y ago
I grew up in Akron, Ohio and now live in the Bay Area. Everyone points out the obvious differences like the weather, seasons, and cost of living (housing in particular). But one thing I rarely see mentioned is it seems that people in Northeast Ohio seem far less judgmental in general. Whereas here, I feel like every third person you meet is trying to size you up or “demonstrate” how smart they are. Granted that’s probably a side effect of an overall higher bar of success for the region… But it’s still refreshing to get a break from that attitude when I visit family back home. Unfortunately the there’s such a severe lack of tech jobs in Ohio that I doubt I’ll ever be moving back.
BRitterbeck 12y ago
I moved from Cleveland to the Bay Area two and a half years ago. It was probably the best decision I have ever made. While working down in Mountain View, I learned there is absolutely nothing special about Silicon Valley. What is being done here in the Bay Area can be replicated anywhere. Had I not moved here, I would still have this vision of Silicon Valley being a special place. I would even go so far as to say you're better off starting a company in the Midwest. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and you can still find good talent. Sure, it will be harder to raise money; however, money will find the truly good ideas.
ryanSrich 12y ago
I was in the exact same boat just two years ago. I always thought I'd move to the valley to work for a startup and then eventually start my own. After my first offer right out of college with a company in SF didn't work out I ended up taking a job in DC. My god am I glad that I held out on that one. Not only did I make a comparable salary in DC but the housing cost was at least half. I was paying slightly less than $2k for a nice 600 sqft one bedroom. In SF it would have been closer to $3.5k. Now two years later I work remotely from Portland for a company based out of Madison Wisconsin. Who would have thought right? Certainly not me 2 years ago. As I've grown and traveled the US I've found the valley to be less and less desirable (and yes, I've been there several times). Honestly the only draw to the valley is the higher volume of jobs. Aside from Google, Apple, et al, you're going to be saving far less in the valley than anywhere else. There's no incentive to move the valley if you can find a job anywhere else. I know people will tell you the network of VCs, the atmosphere, etc. But it's all overrated. If you're right out of school your number one concern should be saving money and learning. If you work in the valley you're only getting access to one of those and it's certainly not saving money (again, unless you're working for Big Tech Co.). Now don't get me wrong. There are certainly places out there that are far superior to others. I would certainly rather live in the valley than Houston. The cultural aspect is key. I'm simply saying don't run to the valley because you have some idealized image of it. Research and do the math.
zippergz 12y ago
The problem I have with the cost of living argument is that, while housing tends to be cheaper, an iPad or a new car is not. That lower salary hurts everywhere except in mortgage or rent. And I say this as someone who has never lived in the Bay Area and hopefully never will.
- kevan 12y ago
  True, but mortgage or rent is one of the largest items in most people's budgets. A new software engineer in Minneapolis can comfortably buy a house and start building equity. A new software engineer in the bay area probably can't even with the >40% salary difference.
  - kxo 12y ago
    Don't forget the close-to-10% state income tax (at engineer income), higher sales tax, CA SDI, higher food/utility costs, higher insurance, etc. If you're lucky enough to work in a state with no (or low/fixed) income tax, that 10% combined with the hilarious housing cost situation covers the spread in salary difference very quickly. And if you're working remotely there are obviously other potential lifestyle savings to be had (parking, generally less restaurant expenses, etc.)
Bahamut 12y ago
I loved my time in the midwest, but I don't miss the winters - they were brutal, and it would often take until May or June until spring weather would come. I uniquely have friends around the world and spread out all over the US - location doesn't matter as much to me, since I could hang out with everyone I want. As a single man though, the Bay area makes a lot of sense for me as a result, since the pay still outpaces the cost of living for me. Being tired of wintry weather was also a huge factor in me migrating out west. There is a chance I might migrate south to the Austin area in the future, or back east to the NY or DC area eventually - I do miss the strong ties I have to the east coast from having lived there for most of my life, but Austin sounds attractive as a tech hub and due to more sane housing costs.
rongenre 12y ago
The problem with working in the Midwest is: what do I do if the job I have goes under. In a tech hub I can be lining up interesting interviews in a few days.
- syncopatience 12y ago
  It's no different in the midwest, at least in the larger cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, KC, etc).
nether 12y ago
All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone.
driverdan 12y ago
What's really ridiculous is that companies force people to live in the bay area and work from an office. There is absolutely no reason for this anymore. Developers can write code from anywhere, whether that means Ohio, India, or wherever.
lukego 12y ago
Complementary idea: REMOTE (http://37signals.com/remote/ http://37signals.com/remote/)
scrapcode 12y ago
I grew up in Kentucky, and have lived in many other states in the east and southeast. I've also lived in Washington and LA. There are some things that I really miss about LA, such as the constant activity and drive, but those are also the things that I found I could never acclimate to living with (the traffic, the constant hustle). I live in Kansas City now and am hoping to see big things start to happen more often in the technical start-up world. The city is embracing start-up culture it seems and it's just so damn cheap that I believe it to be inevitable.
noobermin 12y ago
The "best" university I could get into was my last choice, a certain, large public uni in Ohio, and I was upset but I chose it anyway. However, Columbus is freaking awesome, I was so happy I decided to come here just because of the place and the friendly people (in fact, I have met one or two people who frequent this very site there!), not to mention the variety of great food and great coffee! I have since starting planning leaving uni, but I probably want to stay in Columbus, if possible. How ironic, isn't it?
kelnos 12y ago
I'm getting a bit weary of people putting down others for where they live, while glorifying their own choices. Guess what? It's just a location. Everyone has different tastes and different priorities. Some people are happy with where they live and wouldn't consider living anywhere else. Others wish they could move somewhere else where the pace of life is different -- slower or faster. Some people want a big house and plot of land. Others don't want to deal with the hassles of home ownership and like renting a modestly sized apartment. Why do we feel the need to keep arguing this? Just let people live where they want to live, and stop wasting time evangelizing any particular city. No one needs to justify their city of choice.
gowan 12y ago
As a californian who recently moved to the midwest (IA) the only thing I really miss is the mountain biking. On the other hand I love the road biking scene in IA.
- hugs 12y ago
  As a (Southern) Californian who moved to Chicago many years ago, I feel the same away about missing the mountains. (For trail running, not biking, though). If I ever move back to CA, it'll be to Marin County so I can be near all those amazing running trails. The high cost of living there keeps me away, though.
nebos0 12y ago
Throwaway account, New Englander here and quite frankly I think the Midwest is politically and socially backwards and I do not want anything to do with your part of the country. I have the same feelings about the South. Politically you're still debating the merits of gay marriage in many of your states and thankfully only because of the courts are you being forced to accept it as a legitimate thing. Too much religion and not enough education. Too conservative. Especially your desperate need to cling to gun-ownership as some sort of ultimate freedom. If i'm picking petty things to dislike... we'll you're also boring. You don't export any interesting cultural artifacts you just soak up whatever the coasts have to offer. That's not much of a reason though and as I said, it's petty.
- Aloha 12y ago
  You sound like someone who's never seen anything outside of coastal New England, backwardness exists all over. See how the folks in rural Maine feel about gay marriage - I'll point out that 47% of voters in 2012 were opposed which on the surface sure doesn't seem too different to me than the 46% of Ohioans apposed as of last polling in 2014. I'd bet I'd find remarkably similar polling in Ohio, Maine, Vermont or New Hampshire about gun rights too. When it comes down to it, the conservatives have lost the war they might not realize it yet, but history is on the side of those for equality and equitable treatment. As for the culture comments? You're just a snob, but that very nearly goes without saying.
dustin1114 12y ago
Disclaimer: I'm a son of the Midwest :-) This article hit home for me. Though I technically now live in a medium-sized mid-Atlantic city, the culture here is more like the Midwest. I'm not against the Bay area or NYC, but for me, I couldn't imagine living in those places: congestion, price of living, and their lacking of the "down-home" feeling. I believe it would be more difficult to found a technology-centric company where I live, though. As an example, the company I work for, though very large, is based in a small city. For years, there was not much of an issue attracting new talent. The problem is that our IT organization has grown immensely recently, and attracting new "hacker" talent into the middle of the country is a huge obstacle. One of the solutions was opening another IT office in New Jersey, just a few miles from NYC. Problem solved. But then there's those of us who grew up in the Midwest. I love being able to buy and own a nice home for under $200K. I enjoy being able to drive to work with minimal traffic. I even like reading about living in the Bay area on HN and laughing at the things so many have to deal with! But the truth is, tech people thrive in the Bay area. And I'd say that the Bay thrives on them. But there will always be a few of us engineers who live in "flyover" country :-)
niche 12y ago
Ohio != Midwest
glesica 12y ago
I grew up in the midwest and hope I never have to live there again. But I also hate California (hot, even in winter, way too sunny, smells awful about 80% of the time, probably in part because of the heat). I found that places like Washington, Oregon, and Montana are much more to my liking. Moral of the story: everyone has different preferences and things they value, so assuming that any particular person would want to live in any particular place is pretty foolish. As a corollary, assuming that anyone talented will want to live in California (because everyone wants to live in California) seems like a pretty bad strategy.
vasilipupkin 12y ago
The reality is, the confluence of factors such as availability of VC capital, proximity of Stanford and weather make Bay Area the best place to be if you are a founder or a very early employee of a startup and you hold a significant stake. If the weather is a big factor for you, then Chicago will never beat Bay Area. But if you are not one of the above, and you don't care about the weather, Chicago beats Bay Area hands down on quality of life, in my opinion
nfriedly 12y ago
As another developer who lives in Ohio, but has taken numerous trips to SF and even lived in the bay area for a year, I agree with everything in this article.
amyjess 12y ago
I live in the suburbs of Dallas, and I wouldn't be able to stand living anywhere else. Cities are expensive, cramped, filthy, and noisy. The Silicon Valley startup scene deeply creeps me out. I couldn't really care less about "culture"; just give me a good local bar to hang out at and a bunch of good restaurants, and I'll be happy. One thing about Dallas is that the suburbs are really ethnically diverse, and that translates into lots and lots of really damn good ethnic restaurants (I've even heard reports that we have more restaurants per captia than NYC, but that's probably a myth -- it's a believable one, though). Oh, and I pay $1200/month rent for a 1500 sq. ft. townhouse in a nice part of town. There's no way NYC or SF can beat that. By the way, I'm a trans woman, and I went full-time before I started passing. The only time I've ever faced street harassment was the the two years I worked downtown (and I was harassed both before and after transition). Since I'm working in the suburbs again (hallelujah!), I haven't been harassed. Sorry, but I'd rather not have hobos and perverts shouting at me and following me around. Even the most liberal cities are still cities and still have unsavory types crowding the streets. You don't see that in the suburbs, even conservative ones. I never encountered even a single instance of transphobia in the suburbs (again, I went full-time before I was passable) -- and I'd like to repeat that I live in Texas.

189 points by ntietz 12y ago

I guess I find it a bit off-putting that a blog post trying to dispel stereotypes about a geographic region stoops to saying things like "On both coasts, the pace of life is really, really high: you just go, go, go and work constantly." This might be the norm in New York and Silicon Valley, but the south isn't this way, and I have been to towns as far east as MA that have laid back cultures — visit the town of Wellesley, MA if you want to see that. I am not disagreeing that there are great things about living anywhere, but trying to overturn stereotyping by stereotyping doesn't ring very true to me.

avasylev 12y ago
Wellesley MA is one of the most expensive suburbs of Boston with home prices above million, most of IT guys would have to work day and night to live in that laid back culture :)
- gjmulhol 12y ago
  Not arguing that it is cheap, just saying that the generalization that everywhere near the coast is fast moving is incorrect. Cheaper options include Wilmington, NC, Raleigh, NC, and Asheville, NC -- I skew NC because I lived there for several years and loved it (and I am now based in the Bay Area).

larrywright 12y ago

As a fellow Midwesterner, I say "Amen". I live halfway between Chicago and St. Louis - a two hour drive in either direction. We've got everything we need, including great schools and tons of dining and entertainment options. I own a 2500 square foot house that will be completely paid for in 10 years, and my mortgage is ~$700/month. I've been to both coasts and many large cities in the US and abroad. I'd still rather live here than anywhere else.

micro-ram 12y ago
Agreed. Hi neighbor. Have 200mbit fiber now. Getting gigabit fiber in a few days. Welcome to Central Illinois. NO TRAFFIC!
- monksy 12y ago
  WTF?! It's a struggle just to get gigabit to the home in Chicago.
- turbostyler 12y ago
  If the two best things I could say about my city were fast internet and no traffic, I'd kill myself - or move, I guess.
- larrywright 12y ago
  Whoa. I don't have anywhere near that. Are you in Champaign-Urbana?

seany 12y ago

Also, gun laws aren't total shit like they are on most of the coast.

xxpor 12y ago
Who cares? Honestly. If that's decides where you move... I honestly feel extremely sorry for you.
- kxo 12y ago
  Ah yes, feel sorry for someone who chooses to live where their rights are not (or are less) infringed upon.

hapless 12y ago

No one who has done his research doubts that Cleveland can be a really nice place to live. It's a charming midsize city with lots of good stuff happening. Unfortunately, that's often not how we choose our geographic location. America's major cities (Chicago, Los Angeles, New York) and one midsize city with a special industry focus (the bay area) offer almost inconceivable economic opportunity to people in HN's line of work. Relative to population, their software and technology industries are tens of times the size of Cleveland. If you are a schoolteacher (one of the most common and widely distributed white collar jobs), Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity. It's telling that the essay's author is a 100% remote employee of a firm in the bay area. Not even an ardent defender of the (non-Chicago) midwest was able to build his ideal career there.

paulhauggis 12y ago
"Cleveland is probably a hugely appealing destination. As a person working in the technology industry (a much more centralized niche), it presents a tremendous trade-off between quality of life and opportunity." I live in the midwest and visited Cleveland last year. Outside of about two streets downtown, it's pretty much a ghost town at night. Many, many businesses have left over the past 5 years because of the economy.

vasco_ 12y ago

Having lived in Pittsburgh for 10 years, I can say that I miss a lot about that City. I miss the seasons, the people and the landscape, and in Pittsburgh, there are a lot of great technology companies. Nothing compared to SF, of course, but you can definitely have a great life there. The thing that I can't overcome is the lack of an Ocean. It is very to beat a beach sunset after work.

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rdtsc 12y ago

Ah but it is not a defense of Midwest as a workplace. It is a defense of the Midwest as a living place and effectively working on the West cost, and by implication, getting a West coast salary. If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed. However I found tech jobs wise Ohio was a shithole. The number of available jobs, the salaries, the expectations were just not there when I was looking. Like he said, the people are great, I had to leave a lot of friends and family behind, which hurt. The food, art scene, music wasn't bad, so agree on those fronts. Edit: Interesting, getting downvoted without any comments. Not sure if this is an instinctive defense "he is attacking out Midwest pride"... Like I said, I like Midwest, and would have rather not had to leave. Unfortunately companies I got offers from didn't allow remote work.

klipt 12y ago
> If you can do this arangement, it is not bad, agreed. I'd say it's a pretty great arrangement ... but probably difficult to pull off. Which means you're screwed if you lose your job. Doubly screwed if you already have a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work.
- empthought 12y ago
  You can pay for a mortgage in place-that's-good-to-live-but-not-to-work on a third of the West Coast salary needed.
  - klipt 12y ago
    Well yeah, I could buy a house in some places with just 1-2 years of frugally saved West Coast salary. Question is, how would I get a job after moving there...?

bglazer 12y ago

I live in Memphis TN and I've found that comments on HN towards the middle of the US are skewed negative. Perhaps I have a bias for remembering negative comments. Nonetheless, I find this attitude perplexing from the HN crowd. I understand the value of physical proximity to lots of other like minded, smart people. However, I would have thought that the tech crowd would be the first to decry the inefficiencies of having one or two (SF and NY) annointed "tech hubs" and actively eschewing every other place. Why crowd every damn programmer in the world into the SF bay area when we have the internet?! That's the whole point of the internet! There's also the cultural argument. Tech work has tended to attract people who are part of non-mainstream culture. Tech hub cities attract these people because they already have every culture and subculture imaginable and a society that mostly tolerates them. There's also a perception that other places don't have this and that their particular affiliation would invite outright hostility. That's mostly not true. Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. Again though, I think that choosing where you live based on whether or not you can surround yourself with exclusively like minded people is counter to the hacker ethos. Let's not forget that Silicon Valley was not always what it is now. People built the place, and the rest of the US and the world could benefit from people who attempted to do the same elsewhere.

rdtsc 12y ago
> Every large city (>1M people) will almost certainly have communities of people who share your culture or at least tolerate and support it. That is not enough. There need to be companies willing to hire. Those companies spring around where there is more talent so they don't have to relocate everyone. Where is more talent? Around more companies. It is a feedback loop. Network effect is probably the correct phrase here. Unless large tech companies perhaps move their main offices or open large offices around these Midwest or Southern cities the situation will not change. But do we see Google, Facebook, Apple moving their HQ to Cleveland, or Memphis?
- bglazer 12y ago
  I was going to add a comment at the end about how I fear that I may be fighting a losing battle against socioeconomic feedback loops. That's profoundly sad to me though. Concentrating all of the technological revolution's talent and wealth in a few cities will have bad effects on the rest of the country.

meow_mix 12y ago

There's also a really great budding startup scene in Columbus centered around Ohio State. The midwest really shouldn't be discounted for work, especially considering how cramped the valley's becoming.

loganfrederick 12y ago
Do you work/live in Columbus? I graduated from OSU in 2012 and it's great to hear on HN other people who feel the city is exciting.
- meow_mix 12y ago
  I'm a student at Ohio State and I work part time as a web contractor. This summer I'll be in Seattle as an intern at Amazon though, so I'm excited to see the difference.

puls 12y ago

Carnegie Mellon is absolutely in the midwest. Pennsylvania is a big state.

dasil003 12y ago
Pennsylvania the 33rd largest state. It is definitely not a large state by western standards. I guess if you consider NYC the center of the universe then maybe it's the Midwest, but as a Midwesterner (from Minneapolis) I'm not really feeling that.
- fjk 12y ago
  I think puls meant that Pennsylvania is a big state in the sense that Philadelphia is considered to be a part of the east coast while Pittsburgh (home of Carnegie Mellon) is often considered to be a part of the midwest. In that sense, Pennsylvania is a big state. Perhaps "wide" is a better descriptor. Pittsburgh is kind of a buffer between the east coast and the midwest. Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it feels more midwestern.
  - throwaway_1jl 12y ago
    > Architecturally, it feels more like an east coast city, but culturally it feels more midwestern. I grew up in Illinois/Missouri and lived in Pittsburgh. This is spot on.
BrandonM 12y ago
I agree. I grew up in Ohio, and to me, Pittsburgh and the rest of western PA is part of the Midwest. It has the same farmland/steel-town culture that Ohio does. Obviously Philadelphia is not, so I would argue that the dividing line is somewhere in the middle of the state.
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  Well, see, this kind of depends on your definition of "Midwest". I grew up a fair distance west of Denver, and to me, the dividing line between East and Midwest is Chicago. The "real" west begins at Denver. This neatly divides the country into approximately thirds. But to say that Ohio and western PA are "Midwest" because they're west of the Appalachians... bah. You easterners need to get out more. And if you think steel town culture makes you part of the Midwest, well... come west of Chicago and look around. You don't see many steel towns out here. I mean, I suppose that's the labels that you grew up on, and it's how the locals label themselves, so on that level it's hard to argue with. But anything that includes "West" as part of the name (or even "Mid") that includes Pittsburgh... look at a map of the country, and then explain to me how that makes any sense at all.

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jdg 12y ago

There is a huge difference between founding a startup in the midwest and being an engineer in the midwest. I believe that gets lost in a lot of the rhetoric from both sides. I love hiring engineers in the midwest. Consistently great work ethics, etc, etc. On the other hand, if you're an entrepreneur, you don't live in SF and you're building a consumer internet startup, you're fucked. Primarily because your access to capital is so limited it's ridiculous. Most people that live in the midwest aren't able to put in the time required to build out the relationships needed to successfully fundraise in the Valley.

bbcbasic 12y ago
The other side of the coin: If you live in SF and your VC backed startup doesn't experience massive growth then you're fucked. In a cheaper city you can be ramen profitable, or a lifestyle business, or just a regular business or whatever.
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ryanSrich 12y ago
I'd have to disagree. At least based on the companies I've observed coming out of the midwest (including the one I work for) [1]. 1. http://www.seed-db.com/accelerators/view?acceleratorid=263012 http://www.seed-db.com/accelerators/view?acceleratorid=26301...
dirtae 12y ago
Yik Yak is a consumer Internet startup that just raised $61 million, and is based in Atlanta, GA: http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/02/yik-yaks-new-funding-round-confirmed-as-sequoia-leads-61m-investment/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/02/yik-yaks-new-funding-round-...

kdefranco 12y ago

As a native Clevelander I can fully back this piece. I came back to Cleveland upon graduating college in May and have not regretted my decision one bit. While the resources are nowhere as easy to come by as in the Valley there still is a great startup community that's been building over the past few years. The cheap cost of living, beautiful seasons and plethora of things to do year-round have me recruiting college friends to come join me instead of vice versa.

re_todd 12y ago
I'm tempted to move to a cheaper city inland, but I've heard horror stories of people trying to get to work when it snows. Is it extremely difficult to get to work in the winter?
- shyy 12y ago
  No, not at all. Every once in a while there’s an extremely bad storm that makes it difficult, but for the most part the infrastructure (plows, salt trucks, etc.) has adapted to the climate such that it’s not a problem 97% of the time.
  - kevan 12y ago
    Minnesotan here, everyone in my office takes their laptops home if we think it'll snow. If it snows during the commute then things slow down, but there's armies of plow trucks and things get cleared quickly.
- zhte415 12y ago
  Another part of the world, but where snow sometimes happens. Utilities stay up - water, electricity, internet. It is not a big deal. People work from home and understand this; those that must go to work arrive late and go home early, this is understood too. Just have a padded coat.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    And good tires. And a snow scraper in your car.

kzisme 12y ago

I feel a lot of the same feelings the author felt while doing his undergrad, and it's nice to know other people feel the same way about their geographic location. I'm also from Ohio and completing my undergrad, and considering where to possibly move for a career. (If that means much at all)

fown9 12y ago

In Defense of Silicon Valley 1. World class food. There is no way you can get the same quality of chinese,japanese,korean,indian,french,italian,californian,thai,vietnamese in Cleveland. 2. People creating things in coffeeshops on the weekends, instead of wasting life watching TV or drinking beer. You only get one life in this great country. 3. It's not ice freezing cold 4. It's not superficial (like LA), not money worshipping (like NY), not power hungry (like DC), not gun/football crazy (like Texas), not corrupt (like Florida) 5. Diversity 6. Tech, Venture networks 7. Silicon Valley people are great people. The entrepreneurs are supportive of each other, since they know how much pain it is to start a company. The people who take risks moving across country to here are brave and adaptive and optimistic. (instead of rotting away on a couch in midwest complaining about lack of jobs)

vasilipupkin 12y ago
We should not compare Silicon Valley to Cleveland. Why don't we compare it to Chicago? The reason the Cleveland comparison is somewhat unfair is that Cleveland is a small city, so we are not comparing apples to apples

L_Rahman 12y ago

I used to believe in the Midwest. Graduated in 2014, moved to Detroit to work for a hardware startup. Live and work downtown, and the professional experience has been phenomenal. However, the issue that's so frequently left out when discussing the palatability of the Midwest is what it's like to be an Asian American here when you've grown up in a major city on the East or West coast. And the reality is that it's really difficult. Race goes from being one aspect of your identity to an omnipresent difference that you feel constantly. On the vast majority of days that I spend here, I'm the only person of South Asian origin that I run into. This tends to lend itself to a sense of isolation that's difficult to capture in words.

analog31 12y ago
I live in the Midwest, but visited a colleague at another site owned by my employer, in California. She echoed your sentiment. I have to say that if there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to enthusiastically endorse living in the Midwest, it's the racism.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  > I have to say that if there's any specific reason why I'd hesitate to enthusiastically endorse living in the Midwest, it's the racism. The midwest includes a broad swath of states. While I've encountered some racism throughout the area, I'd be hard-pressed to see how it's vastly different than any other racism that permeates US culture.
  - lstyls 12y ago
    True, the midwest as a region is broad and well-defined. But I'm guessing what the poster referred to us the midwest north of the mason-dixon line. The upper midwest has its own breed of racism. It is quiet but built in to the socio-economic fabric of cities there in a way even worse than the south in many ways. I'd like to point out that midwestern cities are among the most segragated in the U.S.[1] Minnesota, the place where I grew up, is famous for having one of the best public school systems in the country. What you won't hear Minnesotans talking about, though, it the ugly fact that Minnesota has the highest discrepancy in educational outcomes of any city in the country. If you're from there, its easy to see why. There are exclusive suburbs with incredible schools for the local upper-class kids. But if you go to the inner city the schools are a joke. The difference is shocking in person. The worst part is, there is not even a conversation in the upper midwest about race. The dominant narrative is that its a southern problem. [1] http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-segregated-cities-in-the-u-s/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/03/24/10-of-the-most-segreg... Extra reading: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the_worst_financial_racial_inequality_in_america_according_to_study.php http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2015/02/minnesota_has_the... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if-minneapolis-is-so-great-why-is-it-so-bad-for-black-people/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/02/17/if... *Edited for completeness

msutherl 12y ago

(1) Cleveland gets all the Broadway shows once they go off Broadway, but at about half the cost, (2) We have great music here, including the world-renowned Cleveland Jazz Orchestra, and tons of bands come through, (3) We have some great sports teams (hi, OSU) and a ton of great sports fans (hi, Browns fans), (4) We have great food at very affordable prices Yes, exactly. As someone who lives in New York, this is the very definition of "in the middle of nowhere." Your idea of "culture" is Broadway shows, the local jazz orchestra, professional sports, and restaurants. To me, that's all stuff for tourists. Even San Francisco is culturally lacking by New York, LA, London standards. Fine if you're satisfied by mass-cultural products, but the reality is that most cultural producers migrate to metropolitan centers once they reach a certain level of success and the second-tier cities are left with the loyal, the mediocre, and the novice. That's not to say that there's nothing interesting going on in second-tier cities, but there's maybe 2 orders of magnitude less activity and the ceiling is far lower.

tlarkworthy 12y ago
Ha, scathing. But yeah, if a guy has not lived round the world before deciding Ohio is the best place to live, then it's not a very convincing argument.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  > If a guy has not lived round the world before deciding Ohio is the best place to live, then it's not a very convincing argument. I would venture to guess that you haven't been to Ohio. I'm not claiming that it's an epicenter of amazingness, but I can count at least one person that's decided that's the case (Dave Chappelle).
  - ChainsawSurgery 12y ago
    I'd say that's heavily biased by the fact that Chappelle spent lots of time growing up in Ohio (and specifically Yellow Springs). Lots of people have seemingly irrationally strong attachments to their hometowns - not quite the same as randomly stumbling upon OKC and deciding it's what you've wanted all along, you know? And Chappelle's probably not the greatest example, since he very famously got fed up with his celebrity status and wanted to retreat from the world a little. Surprised you didn't go to Lebron instead.

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mkoble11 12y ago

maybe i'm reading too much into it, but i find the title bothersome. why start with the premise that the midwest needs "defense"? there's great stuff happening here, and anyone with an open mind would recognize that. let's talk up our successes instead of being bashful because we're "not SF".

pnathan 12y ago

When I think of the Midwest these days, I think of St Louis/Ferguson. I think of the price for housing and how it reflects demand. I live in Seattle, so my viewpoint is slightly different, but, eh. I used to live in a rural place, and I don't plan to go back, for a long time, if ever. Let me pick apart this article a bit, and demonstrate how skew these high points are from things I care about. * Housing cost. That's where the pay difference comes in. And my $800/mo in student loans doesn't change if I live on the coast or in the middle of nowhere. So it's actually better for me, because the proportional cost of fixed payments goes way down. * Broadway shows, okay. But wouldn't you rather be in a vibrant place where creation happens, than be the "second hand"? * Same for music. Do you want to be in the place where creation happens, or a pit stop on the tour? * Sportsball. Meh. * Foodwise, my mind was blown by the quality difference between St. Louis and Seattle/SF when I visited recently. Maybe I hit the wrong joints, but STL had terrible food. Absolutely shockingly worse. I'll have to shake down some people for more reccs next time. * Seattle is incredibly friendly and polite. Drivers in the city are probably the friendliest I've ever come across. While it retains the historical Scandinavia reserve, people are really just decent here in general. SF is famous for its collaboration between businesses. * I don't even understand the idea of wanting to turn off work on a daily basis. I left that attitude behind me when I last worked fast food. The 9-5er attitude is "yuck". * The author is generally ignoring the intense network effects of having zillions of nerds in the same city. --- Anyway. Not that TFA is wrong. But its priorities are very skew from mine. I want to live in a place where technology is a significant lifestyle, where nerds are your neighbor, where programmers aren't weirdos. I want to live in a place with tons of cultures colliding and the resultant froth. I want to live in a place where there are new companies forming weekly. I want to live in a place where the optimism is in the air, where young people are flooding around the town with new ideas, new thinking, and crazy things no sane adult would do, and tech is in the heart of all that. Where the next thing is being done at 3 in the morning fuelled by coffee, math, and being young and foolish. Maybe that means I never will leave Seattle/SF/The-next-big-thing until I retire, but I'm okay with that.

BrandonM 12y ago
* Same for music. Do you want to be in the place where creation happens, or a pit stop on the tour? This one is bullshit. Plenty of bands came from Ohio, including OAR, the Foo Fighters, and the Black Keys. IMO, the live music scene in Columbus is way better than SF, with a diverse group of talented bands playing every night of the week.

msoad 12y ago

For an immigrant Midwest is though. In Bay Area, there are tons of groups of people from countries you've never heard of them. And funny is, all those people are working in technology so in their time together they have a lot of shared interests to talk about. One other side effect of having more diverse demographics is people are less bios against ethnicity. Because people are exposed to a lot of people from other ethnicities.

justin66 12y ago
The city the author was talking about, Cleveland, is a city with a 51% black population. A suburb I live next to in the area has a Jewish population comparable to an Israeli city (over 90%). I'm pretty sure we've got the largest Slovenian population outside of Slovenia. I just got a graduate degree from a college in Cleveland and roughly 80% of my fellow CS students were ethnically Indian, with the rest a pretty random mix from around the world. I guess I could go on. In contrast, I honestly never felt like the urban techie parts of the Bay Area were hugely diverse when I lived there. Lots of really interesting people but there are much more interesting places to live as far as non-tech stuff goes.

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justin66 12y ago

For those in the Bay Area, I guess it's worth noting that people from Oakland tend to have an affinity for Cleveland and vice versa. Something I've noticed over the years. Some of the author's points seem valid but a bit odd (mentioning the Cleveland Jazz Orchestra as being "world-renowned" instead of the Cleveland Orchestra? No mention of the art museums? Mention the Browns several times but not the Cavaliers, especially this year?) but overall it's a good piece. The thing that's missing is this: what makes Cleveland genuinely interesting is that it's a two-hundred year old city which is still figuring out what it's going to be when it grows up. It really could go a few different ways.

godarderik 12y ago

This article is particularly relevant to me. I’m originally from a suburb of Cleveland less than half an hour from where the OP works, and I’m currently an undergraduate at Harvard. There are definitely some differences between the areas, and I can’t say that I have the overwhelmingly positive vision of the Midwest that the author of this post has. My feeling is that people in the Midwest are more content with the status quo — they understand what a comfortable life is, and they seek to achieve that. Life is very safe and sheltered, especially growing up there, and I feel that my peers from elsewhere have been exposed to so much more of life than I have. The Midwest also lacks the intellectual vibrancy that a place like Boston does. It just seems to me that there are overwhelming concentration of smart, ambitious people from the coasts compared to those from the Midwest. Personally, I love it here in Boston, way more than I do at home. Ohio was a good, safe place to grow up, and I imagine that it’s a great place to raise a family. However, I couldn’t imagine spending any more of my life there than I already have without dying from boredom or a creeping sense of mediocrity.

mturmon 12y ago
This rings true. I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City and, looking back, see it as a safe friendly place to grow up. At uni, I was friends with a group of expat Manhattanites (not wealthy though) and similar to what you say, they looked at St. Louis as a quaint toy city. Many inconclusive dorm debates were held on the merits of the two environments. Of course neither of us could give ground, so similar to what you read nearby, we were talking past each other. Too defensive. But that was 20 years and several cities ago. I still visit the Midwest and enjoy family and a few friends. I experience it as not open to newness, to difference, or to the exceptional. These things are just not valued. It is valued to be a regular person and to be comfortable and respectable. This won't work for me. I love LA, where I live now, and have great respect for the Bay Area as well.
vasilipupkin 12y ago
I think Midwest may be sort of a misnomer term. Chicago is midwest too and it definitely doesn't lack "cultural vibrancy". I think what you are referring to is more small town atmosphere rather than Midwest per se

ggreer 12y ago

I think the main reason the author prefers the midwest is because he was raised there. Property values and migration flows attest to people generally preferring the coasts. I've lived in a lot of places: The UK, Alabama, Illinois (for a short time), Guam, Washington, New York, and California. Not having a home town, I think I'm better positioned to evaluate these places. My least favorite region is the south, followed closely by the midwest. The reason is simple: overt racism. Nowhere else have I seen such blatant and hateful discrimination. Even if the weather, food, jobs, and night life improved, I'd still shy away from living there.

justin66 12y ago
> Not having a home town, I think I'm better positioned to evaluate these places. My least favorite region is the south, followed closely by the midwest. The reason is simple: overt racism. I'm not saying you're wrong but it's worth noting that the black population has been increasing in the south for a while due to migration. It's an interesting trend. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25south.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25south.html?pagewanted...
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>Property values and migration flows attest to people generally preferring the coasts. Actually, migration flows show people preferring the Sun Belt, despite the lower salaries and productivity rates. The coasts simply can't build housing fast enough to both accept migrants and maintain their own native-born populations.
chaostheory 12y ago
> The reason is simple: overt racism. Nowhere else have I seen such blatant and hateful discrimination I'm not white, and I've lived in the South for most of my life. From my experience, the South is less racist than either the West Coast or East Coast. Why? Because minorities are forced to hang out with people that aren't their own ethnic group. When this happens the larger ethnic groups become familiar with your own ethnic group as well as some of the culture that comes with it. Conversely in the larger metros in both the East and West coasts, this seems to happen a lot less often because there are enough ethnic minorities here so that there's a lot less mixing socially. Consequently, I've actually been the subject of inadvertent racism in the Bay Area at work. There wasn't any malice behind it, just ignorance, but it was really unpleasant and that would be inconceivable in a Southern metro (from my experience).

forrestthewoods 12y ago

You don't need to defend the midwest. Most people outside of San Francisco couldn't give less of a shit about San Francisco. The three primary smells of SF are urine, human feces, and weed. I think Seattle folk are becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of moving down there. Some dream of it of course, but I think they're decreasing in number. Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that simply won't move to the bay. And SpaceX is starting a 1000 person studio soon. Nashville is a good city. I hope it's tech scene continue to grow. Most west coast folk wouldn't dream of living in country music capital of the world. That's might even be a good thing. More opportunities for new people. Lots of great places to live in the world. SF wouldn't even be in my top 100. So at least take refuge in knowing you're far from alone.

xxpor 12y ago
>Google and Facebook are expanding up here because there's so much talent that simply won't move to the bay I think a lot of that is driven by Amazon, because they built the downtown offices. People get used to working downtown and they want to stay there. Easy commutes from Capitol Hill/QA/etc. Now Facebook is expanding downtown, Google Fremont is growing, etc. because people refuse to commute to the east side. As opposed to the Valley, where your options are (except for Twitter and mostly startups) 1) Work in the valley, and live the suburbs. Yuck. Pay a billion dollars for the privlege. 2) Work in the valley and live in SF. Pay a billion^2 dollars for the privilege, and have a shit commute (sitting on a private bus is still sitting on a bus). No thanks. That being said, I went to Case Western and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle.
- freyr 12y ago
  > and would move back to Cleveland in a heartbeat, if the salaries and opportunities were even remotely comparable to Seattle. At some point you might decide you don't need to jump from company to company, or from job to job. You'll realize you really only need a good job at a decent company. And there's a good chance that such a job exists in Cleveland, or Dallas, or Charlotte, or wherever. At times, you might feel like you're missing out on the action. But then you'll look at your bank account or your house or your kid's college fund, which hasn't been being sucked dry by a ridiculously inflated cost-of-living, and you'll come back to your senses.

mahyarm 12y ago

If you bought your house at 2010, it's not that bad.

datashovel 12y ago

I spent the first ~10 years of my web-dev career in Los Angeles / Orange County area, and South Florida tri-county area. Since 2009 (with a brief stint in Atlanta) I've been an independent consultant in Ohio. Not just the midwest, but a town of only a few thousand. The larger local businesses don't just have parking lots. They have built parking structures for Amish horse and buggies. I've never in my career felt more productive and fulfilled than I have since doing this. It was the best career choice I've ever made. The only complaint I have is that not just my local area, but Ohio and surrounding states in general seem to still be in the equivalent of the dark ages when it comes to technology and the web. I've lucked into some really good, steady clients who appreciate my work, so I know it's out there. The ratio of tech-savvy businesses is definitely obviously lower than you would expect to find in New York or San Francisco. I imagine it's only going to get better though, which I'm really looking forward to.

shyy 12y ago

I grew up in Akron, Ohio and now live in the Bay Area. Everyone points out the obvious differences like the weather, seasons, and cost of living (housing in particular). But one thing I rarely see mentioned is it seems that people in Northeast Ohio seem far less judgmental in general. Whereas here, I feel like every third person you meet is trying to size you up or “demonstrate” how smart they are. Granted that’s probably a side effect of an overall higher bar of success for the region… But it’s still refreshing to get a break from that attitude when I visit family back home. Unfortunately the there’s such a severe lack of tech jobs in Ohio that I doubt I’ll ever be moving back.

BRitterbeck 12y ago

I moved from Cleveland to the Bay Area two and a half years ago. It was probably the best decision I have ever made. While working down in Mountain View, I learned there is absolutely nothing special about Silicon Valley. What is being done here in the Bay Area can be replicated anywhere. Had I not moved here, I would still have this vision of Silicon Valley being a special place. I would even go so far as to say you're better off starting a company in the Midwest. It's a hell of a lot cheaper, and you can still find good talent. Sure, it will be harder to raise money; however, money will find the truly good ideas.

ryanSrich 12y ago

I was in the exact same boat just two years ago. I always thought I'd move to the valley to work for a startup and then eventually start my own. After my first offer right out of college with a company in SF didn't work out I ended up taking a job in DC. My god am I glad that I held out on that one. Not only did I make a comparable salary in DC but the housing cost was at least half. I was paying slightly less than $2k for a nice 600 sqft one bedroom. In SF it would have been closer to $3.5k. Now two years later I work remotely from Portland for a company based out of Madison Wisconsin. Who would have thought right? Certainly not me 2 years ago. As I've grown and traveled the US I've found the valley to be less and less desirable (and yes, I've been there several times). Honestly the only draw to the valley is the higher volume of jobs. Aside from Google, Apple, et al, you're going to be saving far less in the valley than anywhere else. There's no incentive to move the valley if you can find a job anywhere else. I know people will tell you the network of VCs, the atmosphere, etc. But it's all overrated. If you're right out of school your number one concern should be saving money and learning. If you work in the valley you're only getting access to one of those and it's certainly not saving money (again, unless you're working for Big Tech Co.). Now don't get me wrong. There are certainly places out there that are far superior to others. I would certainly rather live in the valley than Houston. The cultural aspect is key. I'm simply saying don't run to the valley because you have some idealized image of it. Research and do the math.

zippergz 12y ago

The problem I have with the cost of living argument is that, while housing tends to be cheaper, an iPad or a new car is not. That lower salary hurts everywhere except in mortgage or rent. And I say this as someone who has never lived in the Bay Area and hopefully never will.

kevan 12y ago
True, but mortgage or rent is one of the largest items in most people's budgets. A new software engineer in Minneapolis can comfortably buy a house and start building equity. A new software engineer in the bay area probably can't even with the >40% salary difference.
- kxo 12y ago
  Don't forget the close-to-10% state income tax (at engineer income), higher sales tax, CA SDI, higher food/utility costs, higher insurance, etc. If you're lucky enough to work in a state with no (or low/fixed) income tax, that 10% combined with the hilarious housing cost situation covers the spread in salary difference very quickly. And if you're working remotely there are obviously other potential lifestyle savings to be had (parking, generally less restaurant expenses, etc.)

Bahamut 12y ago

I loved my time in the midwest, but I don't miss the winters - they were brutal, and it would often take until May or June until spring weather would come. I uniquely have friends around the world and spread out all over the US - location doesn't matter as much to me, since I could hang out with everyone I want. As a single man though, the Bay area makes a lot of sense for me as a result, since the pay still outpaces the cost of living for me. Being tired of wintry weather was also a huge factor in me migrating out west. There is a chance I might migrate south to the Austin area in the future, or back east to the NY or DC area eventually - I do miss the strong ties I have to the east coast from having lived there for most of my life, but Austin sounds attractive as a tech hub and due to more sane housing costs.

rongenre 12y ago

The problem with working in the Midwest is: what do I do if the job I have goes under. In a tech hub I can be lining up interesting interviews in a few days.

syncopatience 12y ago
It's no different in the midwest, at least in the larger cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, KC, etc).

nether 12y ago

All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone.

driverdan 12y ago

What's really ridiculous is that companies force people to live in the bay area and work from an office. There is absolutely no reason for this anymore. Developers can write code from anywhere, whether that means Ohio, India, or wherever.

lukego 12y ago

Complementary idea: REMOTE (http://37signals.com/remote/ http://37signals.com/remote/)

scrapcode 12y ago

I grew up in Kentucky, and have lived in many other states in the east and southeast. I've also lived in Washington and LA. There are some things that I really miss about LA, such as the constant activity and drive, but those are also the things that I found I could never acclimate to living with (the traffic, the constant hustle). I live in Kansas City now and am hoping to see big things start to happen more often in the technical start-up world. The city is embracing start-up culture it seems and it's just so damn cheap that I believe it to be inevitable.

noobermin 12y ago

The "best" university I could get into was my last choice, a certain, large public uni in Ohio, and I was upset but I chose it anyway. However, Columbus is freaking awesome, I was so happy I decided to come here just because of the place and the friendly people (in fact, I have met one or two people who frequent this very site there!), not to mention the variety of great food and great coffee! I have since starting planning leaving uni, but I probably want to stay in Columbus, if possible. How ironic, isn't it?

kelnos 12y ago

I'm getting a bit weary of people putting down others for where they live, while glorifying their own choices. Guess what? It's just a location. Everyone has different tastes and different priorities. Some people are happy with where they live and wouldn't consider living anywhere else. Others wish they could move somewhere else where the pace of life is different -- slower or faster. Some people want a big house and plot of land. Others don't want to deal with the hassles of home ownership and like renting a modestly sized apartment. Why do we feel the need to keep arguing this? Just let people live where they want to live, and stop wasting time evangelizing any particular city. No one needs to justify their city of choice.

gowan 12y ago

As a californian who recently moved to the midwest (IA) the only thing I really miss is the mountain biking. On the other hand I love the road biking scene in IA.

hugs 12y ago
As a (Southern) Californian who moved to Chicago many years ago, I feel the same away about missing the mountains. (For trail running, not biking, though). If I ever move back to CA, it'll be to Marin County so I can be near all those amazing running trails. The high cost of living there keeps me away, though.

nebos0 12y ago

Throwaway account, New Englander here and quite frankly I think the Midwest is politically and socially backwards and I do not want anything to do with your part of the country. I have the same feelings about the South. Politically you're still debating the merits of gay marriage in many of your states and thankfully only because of the courts are you being forced to accept it as a legitimate thing. Too much religion and not enough education. Too conservative. Especially your desperate need to cling to gun-ownership as some sort of ultimate freedom. If i'm picking petty things to dislike... we'll you're also boring. You don't export any interesting cultural artifacts you just soak up whatever the coasts have to offer. That's not much of a reason though and as I said, it's petty.

Aloha 12y ago
You sound like someone who's never seen anything outside of coastal New England, backwardness exists all over. See how the folks in rural Maine feel about gay marriage - I'll point out that 47% of voters in 2012 were opposed which on the surface sure doesn't seem too different to me than the 46% of Ohioans apposed as of last polling in 2014. I'd bet I'd find remarkably similar polling in Ohio, Maine, Vermont or New Hampshire about gun rights too. When it comes down to it, the conservatives have lost the war they might not realize it yet, but history is on the side of those for equality and equitable treatment. As for the culture comments? You're just a snob, but that very nearly goes without saying.

dustin1114 12y ago

Disclaimer: I'm a son of the Midwest :-) This article hit home for me. Though I technically now live in a medium-sized mid-Atlantic city, the culture here is more like the Midwest. I'm not against the Bay area or NYC, but for me, I couldn't imagine living in those places: congestion, price of living, and their lacking of the "down-home" feeling. I believe it would be more difficult to found a technology-centric company where I live, though. As an example, the company I work for, though very large, is based in a small city. For years, there was not much of an issue attracting new talent. The problem is that our IT organization has grown immensely recently, and attracting new "hacker" talent into the middle of the country is a huge obstacle. One of the solutions was opening another IT office in New Jersey, just a few miles from NYC. Problem solved. But then there's those of us who grew up in the Midwest. I love being able to buy and own a nice home for under $200K. I enjoy being able to drive to work with minimal traffic. I even like reading about living in the Bay area on HN and laughing at the things so many have to deal with! But the truth is, tech people thrive in the Bay area. And I'd say that the Bay thrives on them. But there will always be a few of us engineers who live in "flyover" country :-)

niche 12y ago

Ohio != Midwest

glesica 12y ago

I grew up in the midwest and hope I never have to live there again. But I also hate California (hot, even in winter, way too sunny, smells awful about 80% of the time, probably in part because of the heat). I found that places like Washington, Oregon, and Montana are much more to my liking. Moral of the story: everyone has different preferences and things they value, so assuming that any particular person would want to live in any particular place is pretty foolish. As a corollary, assuming that anyone talented will want to live in California (because everyone wants to live in California) seems like a pretty bad strategy.

vasilipupkin 12y ago

The reality is, the confluence of factors such as availability of VC capital, proximity of Stanford and weather make Bay Area the best place to be if you are a founder or a very early employee of a startup and you hold a significant stake. If the weather is a big factor for you, then Chicago will never beat Bay Area. But if you are not one of the above, and you don't care about the weather, Chicago beats Bay Area hands down on quality of life, in my opinion

nfriedly 12y ago

As another developer who lives in Ohio, but has taken numerous trips to SF and even lived in the bay area for a year, I agree with everything in this article.

amyjess 12y ago

I live in the suburbs of Dallas, and I wouldn't be able to stand living anywhere else. Cities are expensive, cramped, filthy, and noisy. The Silicon Valley startup scene deeply creeps me out. I couldn't really care less about "culture"; just give me a good local bar to hang out at and a bunch of good restaurants, and I'll be happy. One thing about Dallas is that the suburbs are really ethnically diverse, and that translates into lots and lots of really damn good ethnic restaurants (I've even heard reports that we have more restaurants per captia than NYC, but that's probably a myth -- it's a believable one, though). Oh, and I pay $1200/month rent for a 1500 sq. ft. townhouse in a nice part of town. There's no way NYC or SF can beat that. By the way, I'm a trans woman, and I went full-time before I started passing. The only time I've ever faced street harassment was the the two years I worked downtown (and I was harassed both before and after transition). Since I'm working in the suburbs again (hallelujah!), I haven't been harassed. Sorry, but I'd rather not have hobos and perverts shouting at me and following me around. Even the most liberal cities are still cities and still have unsavory types crowding the streets. You don't see that in the suburbs, even conservative ones. I never encountered even a single instance of transphobia in the suburbs (again, I went full-time before I was passable) -- and I'd like to repeat that I live in Texas.