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"A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement." Now t

"A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement." Now this sounds rather as an assault, a sick power play, but I would accept it called rape when it involved was sexual amusement but probably sexual assault would be a better term as it would not dilute the meanings confusingly. Nonetheless this kind of behaviour is sickening and not acceptable by any means but it would explain why it was possible to tolerate it multiple times and how hard it was to do anything to prove that it happened. Edit: I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names. For example "Stop sexual assaults at work" would be in my opinion much more convincing and believable slogan than the exaggerated wording. This would make the fight with the problem easier as it would not create that much confusion and opposition from it. Using strong words creates opposition as people would find it by their own experience rather not believable but perhaps they have seen, heard something that would fit sexual assault definition or sexual harassment definition. I believe that it would be much easier to define and establish the definition of sexual assault in peoples minds and educate them to see it than trying to redefine the established definition of rape in the society. For clarification, I consider here acts that are described by "A second colleague at a different institution held me against a wall against my objections and struggles and hit me with objects for his own amusement." Now again, we should not tolerate this kind of behaviour and we should fight against it but I think it would be easier when we do not call it by too strong names as it would be then easier to establish this as wrongful and not acceptable behaviour in peoples minds. I think that it is easier to fight with concrete problems individually rather than stretching the definitions.

pron 12y ago
> I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names. No, it won't, and let me explain why. One of the well known forms of sexism is what I like to call (I wonder if there's an academic name for this) "everyone's a lawyer". You'll find that often when men report wrongdoings, there's a simple expression of outrage, but when women do, everyone's a lawyer who says "of course that's horrible, but let's call it by the right name". Leave the precise naming of offenses to the courts; these are legal definitions, after all, and we are not judges and not bound by the rules of evidence. The best way to fight it is to express outrage, period. No caveats, no "right names", and no legal maneuvering that is not our job anyway.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their opponents something to focus on that makes sense. I've never seen a benefit from doing that. Don't give them an inch if you truly want change.
  - pron 12y ago
    I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term. People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but simply sexist (and we all are to some degree) -- because that's how we've been trained to be -- can benefit from me pointing out this difference in how we respond to stories by women differently from those by men. My goal is not to maintain the moral high ground (which I know I possess in this case anyway), but simply to educate those who wish to learn. Change will be made through education of the "innocent sexists"; not by reforming misogynists.
    - xtrumanx 12y ago
      I'm not sure what the point of replying to my comment is if you're not going to answer my question to you. Here it is again if you missed it: Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? I see a lot these sorts of threads end up with people talking past each other and not really responding to each other questions. Let's try not to do that. We can maybe move forward in the conversation and perhaps you can educate me on the topic. But if you don't answer straight-forward yes or now question I'm just left wondering if I should take any education I receive from you seriously.
bluehat 12y ago
Yeah I didn't view his actions towards me as rape either. Just really dickish.

pron 12y ago

> I think that it would be much easier to fight with such behaviour by calling it by actual names. No, it won't, and let me explain why. One of the well known forms of sexism is what I like to call (I wonder if there's an academic name for this) "everyone's a lawyer". You'll find that often when men report wrongdoings, there's a simple expression of outrage, but when women do, everyone's a lawyer who says "of course that's horrible, but let's call it by the right name". Leave the precise naming of offenses to the courts; these are legal definitions, after all, and we are not judges and not bound by the rules of evidence. The best way to fight it is to express outrage, period. No caveats, no "right names", and no legal maneuvering that is not our job anyway.

xtrumanx 12y ago
Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? Of course those "everyone's a lawyer's" types are going to crawl out of the woodwork. Why not call it what it is and not give them any ammo to justify a disgusting action? This isn't the first time I've seen people on the moral highground undermine their own position by giving their opponents something to focus on that makes sense. I've never seen a benefit from doing that. Don't give them an inch if you truly want change.
- pron 12y ago
  I am saying that if the victim decides to call it rape because that's how it felt, my first response (nor second, nor third) would not be to discuss the finer points of the law and debate the legal use of the term. People who act maliciously don't need justification from me. But sexism is usually inadvertent, and "everyone's a lawyer" is a classic, usually innocent, response. So people who are not misogynist, but simply sexist (and we all are to some degree) -- because that's how we've been trained to be -- can benefit from me pointing out this difference in how we respond to stories by women differently from those by men. My goal is not to maintain the moral high ground (which I know I possess in this case anyway), but simply to educate those who wish to learn. Change will be made through education of the "innocent sexists"; not by reforming misogynists.
  - xtrumanx 12y ago
    I'm not sure what the point of replying to my comment is if you're not going to answer my question to you. Here it is again if you missed it: Are you saying even if it wasn't a rape by whatever your very own definition of rape, you would rather call it rape to express outrage? I see a lot these sorts of threads end up with people talking past each other and not really responding to each other questions. Let's try not to do that. We can maybe move forward in the conversation and perhaps you can educate me on the topic. But if you don't answer straight-forward yes or now question I'm just left wondering if I should take any education I receive from you seriously.

bluehat 12y ago

Yeah I didn't view his actions towards me as rape either. Just really dickish.