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Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringin

Why isn't this being reported to the police? That's pretty much what the entire article is about - the risks of taking this before a court or even just bringing it up internally in a company; the potential damage to reputation, career and wellbeing can outweigh the slim possibility of justice (and it is a slim one, because often there are no witnesses). Just talking about this would be a huge decision for anyone, let alone bringing charges against a former manager or colleague. Here are some of the bits you seem to have missed: They worry that they will be seen as liabilities for the rest of their career. Realistically, only bad things happen to the whistleblower. People who don’t believe you will consider you an enemy and call you “traitor” or “attention whore,” but never whistleblower, and people who haven’t bothered to research enough to form an opinion will call you a “liability.” People are going to pass you over for jobs because they think you might stir up trouble. Courts of law are not the solution to this (or at least not the only solution), a massive change in the way we view women in the workplace, and a recognition that there is a problem with sexism in tech are the solution. That starts with taking accounts like this seriously and listening to what people have to say, not dismissing them with tired excuses about taking it to the police instead of boring you with it.

meowface 12y ago
I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted. I can see how it poses a much greater issue when it's a "he-said she-said" scenario, but still, I think you need to at least try to escalate the issue. If you receive disbelief or even retribution for reporting it, then you leave the company and share your experience.
- rtpg 12y ago
  >If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted. I want to believe this, but this is a society where a bunch of pepople on a football team got convicted for rape, and we had op-eds lamenting that these people's promising futures were "ruined" by the conviction.
- grey-area 12y ago
  If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Here's some examples of the sort of reaction you can expect from company and coworkers: https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25 https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25 I personally don't know if I would have the bravery to go through all that for months or years on end during a trial - strangers questioning your motives and morals, whether you're a liar or fantasist, spewing bile about you in public forums etc etc, and many people you knew well and trusted remaining silent because they're worried about their career. At best you can expect grudging acceptance you had a case, but from most people it seems you'll hear that what happened is simply impossible. Just look at all the posts on this very story on HN: I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living. I have never seen it I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague
- jrochkind1 12y ago
  > I think there are valid points to both sides. What is it you think are the two sides here?
  - meowface 12y ago
    Whether or not to report harassment incidents to management or HR at a company. From the devil's advocate position, if you don't report something and the company is completely unaware of it, how could it ever be dealt with?
littletimmy 12y ago
OK, I get the point you are making. My take on this is the following: The problem of someone using another person in a cruel and harsh manner will not be solved until you resolve the problem of massive power differentials in society. In general, when a man has money/power equal to the next 100000 people (literally worth 100000 times more than the next person in our capitalistic language), why on earth wouldn't he think he can use this 1/100000th of a person for his personal satisfaction? It is functionally no different than eating chicken. The problem is not one of gender but one of power. The solution is NOT to see women differently, but to make society so that no person (or employer, let's not forget the huge power differential between an employee and employer) is worth so many more times another person that it warps their view of the other's worth. Can we bring back labor unions already?
- JohnBooty 12y ago
  > The problem is not one of gender but one of power. Makes as much sense as saying the problem of drunk driving is not one of alcohol consumption, but cars crashing into other objects. Your gender has an incredibly strong causative influence on how much power you have. So no, unfortunately we don't get to just eliminate gender from the discussion. It would make things easier, but no. > I am sure every powerless black man, just before he gets > shot on the street like a dog, can take solace in your > assertion that his gender has a incredibly strong > causative influence on the amount of power he has in society. Wow. Not sure where to even go with that one. Surely you can understand that some events are... influenced by multiple factors?
  - littletimmy 12y ago
    I am sure every powerless black man, just before he gets shot on the street like a dog, can take solace in your assertion that his gender has a incredibly strong causative influence on the amount of power he has in society.
- grey-area 12y ago
  OK, I get the point you are making. Thanks for listening. The solution is NOT to see women differently I agree with you there, and think many feminists would too - people just want to be treated the same. The unfortunate reality is that they are not. We should change that.
mattmaroon 12y ago
The chances are NOT slim. They are 58%. source: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-a... As many as 12% of rapes lead to a conviction, which is not slim when you consider the amount that are unreported. It's also silly to compare reporting a rape to an NSA whistleblower. I would pass someone up for a job for giving away company secrets, even if they were ones I didn't agree with. I would never pass a woman up for a job for having reported being raped.
- grey-area 12y ago
  12% of rapes lead to a conviction
hashed 12y ago
Sorry, but I can't trust someone who doesn't want to go to the police but has no problem spreading it over the internet for everybody to judge. It makes the police to be some monsters who got no clue how to handle rape, which is simple defamation, it risks other women who now has to deal with a rapist going around freely because the "victim" here is too precious to do something about it. If a woman have no problem writing articles on the internet there should be no excuse not going to the police. I am sure by now people who worked with her knows anything about it, so there is no "reputation" excuse. This is not problem with sexism in tech, this is a heinous crime that should be dealt with like any other serious crime. This woman is just an attention grabber and nothing more than that, the rape claims are false.
- bluehat 12y ago
  What happened to me happened years ago. I wasn't ready to talk about it then. Now I am. The window for prosecution has closed, so it is not possible to take it to court anymore. Big events like this take years to heal from. I don't understand why so many people seem to believe that people are incapable of healing any more than they do in the first few days after the event. Like the passing of a loved one, with time, you can come to terms with even very unhappy things.
  - hashed 12y ago
    According to your article your problems with sexual harassment started at age 14 and continued later for many years by many different people including multiple rapes. A sane person would go to the police and try to stop it. They will certainly not attribute it to the "tech industry" since it is started much before you have been involved in any industry and as we all know it can happen everywhere. I got a feeling you made sure you go out with the story after the time to make a complain expired just so you won't have to actually prove that all the things you mentioned actually happened. I can't say it for sure but this is my subjective feeling. You basically took your own personal experience and try to attribute it to all the faceless people in the industry, those people can't really defend themselves, what are they going to say? "We didn't rape anybody", after all you blamed the whole industry and by association everybody who is part of it. The same thing you did with your actual rapist, instead of bringing them to justice you have waited until you can't do it and now you can just spread rumours without any consequences.

meowface 12y ago

I think there are valid points to both sides. Yes, clearly there is a problem (I don't think the problem is unique to tech), but if you constantly live in fear of the consequences of actions which you never take, you're really stuck in an endless cycle. If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted. I can see how it poses a much greater issue when it's a "he-said she-said" scenario, but still, I think you need to at least try to escalate the issue. If you receive disbelief or even retribution for reporting it, then you leave the company and share your experience.

rtpg 12y ago
>If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Especially if they get convicted. I want to believe this, but this is a society where a bunch of pepople on a football team got convicted for rape, and we had op-eds lamenting that these people's promising futures were "ruined" by the conviction.
grey-area 12y ago
If you report an incident to the police and if they find evidence of sexual assault, what company or coworker is going to apologize for them or criticize you? Here's some examples of the sort of reaction you can expect from company and coworkers: https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25 https://plus.google.com/+KellyEllis/posts/L4wawXpNt25 I personally don't know if I would have the bravery to go through all that for months or years on end during a trial - strangers questioning your motives and morals, whether you're a liar or fantasist, spewing bile about you in public forums etc etc, and many people you knew well and trusted remaining silent because they're worried about their career. At best you can expect grudging acceptance you had a case, but from most people it seems you'll hear that what happened is simply impossible. Just look at all the posts on this very story on HN: I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living. I have never seen it I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague
jrochkind1 12y ago
> I think there are valid points to both sides. What is it you think are the two sides here?
- meowface 12y ago
  Whether or not to report harassment incidents to management or HR at a company. From the devil's advocate position, if you don't report something and the company is completely unaware of it, how could it ever be dealt with?

littletimmy 12y ago

OK, I get the point you are making. My take on this is the following: The problem of someone using another person in a cruel and harsh manner will not be solved until you resolve the problem of massive power differentials in society. In general, when a man has money/power equal to the next 100000 people (literally worth 100000 times more than the next person in our capitalistic language), why on earth wouldn't he think he can use this 1/100000th of a person for his personal satisfaction? It is functionally no different than eating chicken. The problem is not one of gender but one of power. The solution is NOT to see women differently, but to make society so that no person (or employer, let's not forget the huge power differential between an employee and employer) is worth so many more times another person that it warps their view of the other's worth. Can we bring back labor unions already?

JohnBooty 12y ago
> The problem is not one of gender but one of power. Makes as much sense as saying the problem of drunk driving is not one of alcohol consumption, but cars crashing into other objects. Your gender has an incredibly strong causative influence on how much power you have. So no, unfortunately we don't get to just eliminate gender from the discussion. It would make things easier, but no. > I am sure every powerless black man, just before he gets > shot on the street like a dog, can take solace in your > assertion that his gender has a incredibly strong > causative influence on the amount of power he has in society. Wow. Not sure where to even go with that one. Surely you can understand that some events are... influenced by multiple factors?
- littletimmy 12y ago
  I am sure every powerless black man, just before he gets shot on the street like a dog, can take solace in your assertion that his gender has a incredibly strong causative influence on the amount of power he has in society.
grey-area 12y ago
OK, I get the point you are making. Thanks for listening. The solution is NOT to see women differently I agree with you there, and think many feminists would too - people just want to be treated the same. The unfortunate reality is that they are not. We should change that.

mattmaroon 12y ago

The chances are NOT slim. They are 58%. source: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-a... As many as 12% of rapes lead to a conviction, which is not slim when you consider the amount that are unreported. It's also silly to compare reporting a rape to an NSA whistleblower. I would pass someone up for a job for giving away company secrets, even if they were ones I didn't agree with. I would never pass a woman up for a job for having reported being raped.

grey-area 12y ago
12% of rapes lead to a conviction

hashed 12y ago

Sorry, but I can't trust someone who doesn't want to go to the police but has no problem spreading it over the internet for everybody to judge. It makes the police to be some monsters who got no clue how to handle rape, which is simple defamation, it risks other women who now has to deal with a rapist going around freely because the "victim" here is too precious to do something about it. If a woman have no problem writing articles on the internet there should be no excuse not going to the police. I am sure by now people who worked with her knows anything about it, so there is no "reputation" excuse. This is not problem with sexism in tech, this is a heinous crime that should be dealt with like any other serious crime. This woman is just an attention grabber and nothing more than that, the rape claims are false.

bluehat 12y ago
What happened to me happened years ago. I wasn't ready to talk about it then. Now I am. The window for prosecution has closed, so it is not possible to take it to court anymore. Big events like this take years to heal from. I don't understand why so many people seem to believe that people are incapable of healing any more than they do in the first few days after the event. Like the passing of a loved one, with time, you can come to terms with even very unhappy things.
- hashed 12y ago
  According to your article your problems with sexual harassment started at age 14 and continued later for many years by many different people including multiple rapes. A sane person would go to the police and try to stop it. They will certainly not attribute it to the "tech industry" since it is started much before you have been involved in any industry and as we all know it can happen everywhere. I got a feeling you made sure you go out with the story after the time to make a complain expired just so you won't have to actually prove that all the things you mentioned actually happened. I can't say it for sure but this is my subjective feeling. You basically took your own personal experience and try to attribute it to all the faceless people in the industry, those people can't really defend themselves, what are they going to say? "We didn't rape anybody", after all you blamed the whole industry and by association everybody who is part of it. The same thing you did with your actual rapist, instead of bringing them to justice you have waited until you can't do it and now you can just spread rumours without any consequences.