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I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, may

I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I've just never seen it. Either way, it's not on and it needs to stop

elmin 12y ago
I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.
- emj 12y ago
  I've heard a girl talk about her rape in a friendly environment where we were all good friends, it became awkward and impossible to go on. If I was in her shoes I would never bring it up again, so the chances of hearing stuff like these is slim.
- bluehat 12y ago
  Yeah I don't generally talk about this because it brings conversations to a screaming halt, and you have to spend all your time comforting whoever you just told.
chroma 12y ago
The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the most sexist behavior I've encountered in the workplace was a manager who had a propensity to interrupt women more often than men. I mentioned this to him in private. Apparently, it was an unconscious bias. Afterwards, he made an effort to correct for it. Outside of the workplace (parties, bars, public transportation), I've encountered much worse: people getting cornered, felt-up, etc. But that's always involved strangers or acquaintances, not coworkers. And it should go without saying, but I really feel for the author. :(
- swombat 12y ago
  I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation. Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I have ever experienced. It's about as unthinkable as if a black speaker got on stage and some racists started throwing them peanuts - those people would not remain in the room very long. If security did nothing, the rest of the crowd would probably forcefully throw them out. It seems some women (in tech or in other places) live in a very bizarre, warped world full of complete assholes. I can understand that they're very upset about that - I would be too. I would not tolerate remaining in such an environment, it affronts my basic sense of decency as a human being. But - I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living. Baffled. Edit: Interesting that when I was looking at this comment just now it was at -1. Now back at +1. Not quite sure what there is to downvote here. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, just saying that in my career I have never observed the kind of disgusting behaviour she describes. Clearly it must be happening somewhere since so many women report it. I just wonder where. Even if I was disagreeing with the OP, what is there to downvote? Is disagreement no longer allowed on this site?
  - bluehat 12y ago
    Not OP, but did write the article. I think everything you've said makes a lot of sense given the data set you seem to be working with, and that most people in the tech industry are very good. The incident in question was my talk at DEFCON 19 right before the camera started rolling. I want to reiterate that THEY MADE GOOD ON THIS and I am NOT MAD. I feel like everybody learned a lot and things will be better now. But yeah, there were over 1000 people in the room for that talk, I'm sure if it comes down to a "did it happen" or "did it not happen" we can pull up enough witnesses. That one is pretty cut and dry. Here's the point series I tried to make in the article: bad things happen, when they happen nobody knows what to do about them, and we won't make systems which handle these problems properly until enough people give enough fucks so that they are actually properly made.
tomlock 12y ago
I'd challenge everyone who hasn't seen this in the workplace to talk to their close female friends about the issue. You may be surprised by their stories!
- coordinated 12y ago
  I'm using a throwaway here since my normal account is my real name. My mom went to Long Beach to meet my dad before they got married. He was returning from Vietnam at the end of the war. She was gangraped in a alley by about five guys. My sister was raped by my cousin when she was 13 and we were on a camping trip. She is 40 years old now and after a night out crashed on a friends couch and woke up to him jerking off on her back (this was a few months ago). Things like this happen a lot and shit like "I have never seen so it can't be true" are part of the reason why you barely ever hear of it. If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped.
  - tomlock 12y ago
    :( Thanks for sharing.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    > If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped. Dropping truth-bombs are we.
- tomlock 12y ago
  The amount of downvotes I've got on the above comment really speaks volumes about the problem. It is shameful to me that I can get downvotes on a comment that suggests people actively listen to women.
  - swombat 12y ago
    There's some very weird downvoting patterns on these sexism-related threads. A very polarising topic ("you're either with us or against us, and if I think you're against us I'll downvote you as soon as I detect that this might be the case"). Seems to be happening from both sides of the discussion, which makes for some very random votes. For shame - polarising the discussion doesn't help anyone. :-( Those who downvote reflexively in this manner are precisely the ones who most need to pause, read carefully, and try to learn to see things from more than one perspective...
RowanH 12y ago
I'd like to say having worked in both Canada and New Zealand over 18 odd years now and I've never seen anything like this also. I read these articles and I'm simply stunned. I keep wondering what the heck is going on in companies/cultures/environments for these things to happen. Every time I read an article along these lines I feel even more grateful to work in environments where there haven't been glass ceilings, hiring is on merit and the workplaces are incredibly diverse.
- littletimmy 12y ago
  In the US, I think the problem is that employers are MUCH more powerful than employees. That probably springs from the demonization of labor unions and weak employee protection laws.
- swatow 12y ago
  How diverse is your workplace? I think that a lot of the differences are not in the workplace culture, but how it is reported. I work in the US and I also have never seen anything like this (not that I would have necessarily seen it if it was common, but the same applies to you and other non-US commenter).
- jusben1369 12y ago
  Other people have made this comment but I'll repeat it. Have you ever talked about this with female colleagues? It's scary what they tell you. I would say 95% of males get through their entire working career without ever feeling sexually uncomfortable or worse from another colleague at least once. I'd say about 10% of females would say that was true. Seriously, go talk with them.
swatow 12y ago
Do you honestly think that the UK and America are that different in this regard? Is it possible you're looking for a reason not to contradict the article (not that the event occurred but that it is common or derives from tech culture).
rodgerd 12y ago
> I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I asked a friend why she wasn't going to Linux.conf.au. She stopped going after she was sexually assaulted at one. It's not just a US problem.
brohee 12y ago
Sexual offenders tend to have lots of victims, so victims are likely clustered around them. A workplace with one must have quite a few victims, a workplace without one is full of people that never heard anything like this.

elmin 12y ago

I'm in America, and I've certainly never had a conversation where this level of sexism was mentioned. The worst I've heard is a creepy coworker who likes to give back rubs. For all the reasons in the article, I think it's something which is not discussed as much as it should be. All I can say, is anyone who does this stuff should not be employed anywhere.

emj 12y ago
I've heard a girl talk about her rape in a friendly environment where we were all good friends, it became awkward and impossible to go on. If I was in her shoes I would never bring it up again, so the chances of hearing stuff like these is slim.
bluehat 12y ago
Yeah I don't generally talk about this because it brings conversations to a screaming halt, and you have to spend all your time comforting whoever you just told.

chroma 12y ago

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the most sexist behavior I've encountered in the workplace was a manager who had a propensity to interrupt women more often than men. I mentioned this to him in private. Apparently, it was an unconscious bias. Afterwards, he made an effort to correct for it. Outside of the workplace (parties, bars, public transportation), I've encountered much worse: people getting cornered, felt-up, etc. But that's always involved strangers or acquaintances, not coworkers. And it should go without saying, but I really feel for the author. :(

swombat 12y ago
I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation. Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I have ever experienced. It's about as unthinkable as if a black speaker got on stage and some racists started throwing them peanuts - those people would not remain in the room very long. If security did nothing, the rest of the crowd would probably forcefully throw them out. It seems some women (in tech or in other places) live in a very bizarre, warped world full of complete assholes. I can understand that they're very upset about that - I would be too. I would not tolerate remaining in such an environment, it affronts my basic sense of decency as a human being. But - I have never observed anything like this, ever, whereas this seems to be commonplace in that strange parallel universe where these women are living. Baffled. Edit: Interesting that when I was looking at this comment just now it was at -1. Now back at +1. Not quite sure what there is to downvote here. I'm not disagreeing with the OP, just saying that in my career I have never observed the kind of disgusting behaviour she describes. Clearly it must be happening somewhere since so many women report it. I just wonder where. Even if I was disagreeing with the OP, what is there to downvote? Is disagreement no longer allowed on this site?
- bluehat 12y ago
  Not OP, but did write the article. I think everything you've said makes a lot of sense given the data set you seem to be working with, and that most people in the tech industry are very good. The incident in question was my talk at DEFCON 19 right before the camera started rolling. I want to reiterate that THEY MADE GOOD ON THIS and I am NOT MAD. I feel like everybody learned a lot and things will be better now. But yeah, there were over 1000 people in the room for that talk, I'm sure if it comes down to a "did it happen" or "did it not happen" we can pull up enough witnesses. That one is pretty cut and dry. Here's the point series I tried to make in the article: bad things happen, when they happen nobody knows what to do about them, and we won't make systems which handle these problems properly until enough people give enough fucks so that they are actually properly made.

tomlock 12y ago

I'd challenge everyone who hasn't seen this in the workplace to talk to their close female friends about the issue. You may be surprised by their stories!

coordinated 12y ago
I'm using a throwaway here since my normal account is my real name. My mom went to Long Beach to meet my dad before they got married. He was returning from Vietnam at the end of the war. She was gangraped in a alley by about five guys. My sister was raped by my cousin when she was 13 and we were on a camping trip. She is 40 years old now and after a night out crashed on a friends couch and woke up to him jerking off on her back (this was a few months ago). Things like this happen a lot and shit like "I have never seen so it can't be true" are part of the reason why you barely ever hear of it. If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped.
- tomlock 12y ago
  :( Thanks for sharing.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > If you have a mom and sister the odds are pretty good one of them have been raped. Dropping truth-bombs are we.
tomlock 12y ago
The amount of downvotes I've got on the above comment really speaks volumes about the problem. It is shameful to me that I can get downvotes on a comment that suggests people actively listen to women.
- swombat 12y ago
  There's some very weird downvoting patterns on these sexism-related threads. A very polarising topic ("you're either with us or against us, and if I think you're against us I'll downvote you as soon as I detect that this might be the case"). Seems to be happening from both sides of the discussion, which makes for some very random votes. For shame - polarising the discussion doesn't help anyone. :-( Those who downvote reflexively in this manner are precisely the ones who most need to pause, read carefully, and try to learn to see things from more than one perspective...

RowanH 12y ago

I'd like to say having worked in both Canada and New Zealand over 18 odd years now and I've never seen anything like this also. I read these articles and I'm simply stunned. I keep wondering what the heck is going on in companies/cultures/environments for these things to happen. Every time I read an article along these lines I feel even more grateful to work in environments where there haven't been glass ceilings, hiring is on merit and the workplaces are incredibly diverse.

littletimmy 12y ago
In the US, I think the problem is that employers are MUCH more powerful than employees. That probably springs from the demonization of labor unions and weak employee protection laws.
swatow 12y ago
How diverse is your workplace? I think that a lot of the differences are not in the workplace culture, but how it is reported. I work in the US and I also have never seen anything like this (not that I would have necessarily seen it if it was common, but the same applies to you and other non-US commenter).
jusben1369 12y ago
Other people have made this comment but I'll repeat it. Have you ever talked about this with female colleagues? It's scary what they tell you. I would say 95% of males get through their entire working career without ever feeling sexually uncomfortable or worse from another colleague at least once. I'd say about 10% of females would say that was true. Seriously, go talk with them.

swatow 12y ago

Do you honestly think that the UK and America are that different in this regard? Is it possible you're looking for a reason not to contradict the article (not that the event occurred but that it is common or derives from tech culture).

rodgerd 12y ago

> I can't help but think this is a problem in america and not a problem in tech. Over here (UK) I've never seen or heard of anything like this. I asked a friend why she wasn't going to Linux.conf.au. She stopped going after she was sexually assaulted at one. It's not just a US problem.

brohee 12y ago

Sexual offenders tend to have lots of victims, so victims are likely clustered around them. A workplace with one must have quite a few victims, a workplace without one is full of people that never heard anything like this.