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It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't take "no" for an answer and their target feels they would be in more danger from fighting than from submitting. Our justice system is not helpful to most rape victims, because it is not "real rape"; with fighting, injuries, blood, bruises, etc. And, most rape victims choose not to report the crime because it would further harm them to go through the process of being grilled by police and forced to relive the experience for an audience of likely unsympathetic or even overtly hostile people (this is not to say all police officers are unsympathetic or hostile to rape reports, but the fear that they will be is real and valid). "most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it" Most of the time it is a "he said, she said" situation, and any proof can be interpreted as consensual sex, depending on the person hearing the story.

ricardobeat 12y ago
I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I being too naive?
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  "is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault?" Not that I'm aware of (and I'm relatively familiar with the feminist activist community and current feminist writing). I read it to mean she was raped by a colleague, not that she was sexually assaulted by a colleague, though either would be inexcusable and should be subject to the person being fired. But, again, in a workplace that is hostile to women, dismissive of women's words, and in which the person doing the raping or sexual assaulting or harassing is in a position of power over the women being raped, assaulted, or harassed, it can go on for a long time before someone is willing to throw away their career to make a public accusation, which is exactly what this article is about and why I think it's valuable. There are, clearly, a lot of men in our industry who have literally no idea that this stuff is happening. Zero awareness to the point their instinctive response is to deny that it is true, or to attempt to redefine the words to mean something more palatable. So, let me be clear: You've read an article about someone's experience in the workplace as a woman, and you're first response is effectively to say, "This cannot be true." The author of this article is not the only woman to discuss these issues or to experience this kind of behavior in the workplace, particularly in tech though it is true in many industries. As long as the response of men in this industry is to read these experiences and immediately deny the words and counter-accuse the woman of lying, exaggerating, or "being dramatic", the problems will never go away.
  - ricardobeat 12y ago
    I asked a honest question and did not accuse the author of lying. I really can't get my mind around such violence being common in the workplace without the attackers suffering any consequences. I'm astonished.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      Apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. In my experience, denial is a very common response from men when faced with this kind of story. It is disappointingly common among men in tech, in particular.
      - pgeorgi 12y ago
        And the accusations are equally predictable and disappointing. Maybe some (or many) those "disappointingly common" cases aren't quite the clear-cut misogyny but more similar to what you ran into in this thread?
        SwellJoe 12y ago
        This conversation has a few misunderstandings (all of which, I think, have been resolved through polite clarification) and a number of clear examples of misogyny, which are more difficult to resolve through mere clarification.
- stefantalpalaru 12y ago
  > is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault? Yes, there's a dangerous trend towards redefining rape to include unwanted looks, bad vibes, sex while intoxicated, sex that you change your mind about after the fact, sex that was not good enough, etc.
  - tomlock 12y ago
    Source?
    - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
      "MS. SOMMERS: I interviewed a young women at the University of Pennsylvania who came in in a short skirt and she was in the Women's Center, and I think she thought I was one of the sisterhood.And she said, 'Oh, I just suffered a mini-rape.' And I said, 'What happened?' And she said, 'A boy walked by me and said, `Nice legs'.'You know? And that -- and this young woman considers this a form of rape!" - http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript132.html http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript132.html "psychological rape" - http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Goshen-college-psychological-rape.jpg http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014... "For some females the trauma of eve teasing is almost equivalent to a mini rape which leads to depression and suicide." - http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/for-some-women-eveteasing-trauma-equal-to-minirape-expert/1013433/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/for-some-women-eveteas... "the little rapes" - http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Little-Rapes.jpg http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2013... "Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." - http://books.google.it/books?id=rxE8FQzjpYMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=%22I+call+it+rape+whenever+a+woman+has+sex+and+feels+violated.%22+%22feminism+unmodified%22&source=bl&ots=wfCI5gi20P&sig=m26x9vX0tW2aVzI28IttUDtPX-c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B6h0UtryBrOtsATjxIHoBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22I%20call%20it%20rape%20whenever%20a%20woman%20has%20sex%20and%20feels%20violated.%22%20%22feminism%20unmodified%22&f=false http://books.google.it/books?id=rxE8FQzjpYMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA8...
      - tomlock 12y ago
egeozcan 12y ago
I have a hopefully helpful objection to the use of the word "rape" to describe anything other than "violent rape": While I understand the need to put a strong word to describe the perversity of the offence (which surely isn't less than "violent rape"), the obvious problem is "date rape" and similar are sadly not very well-known. So, when you just say "rape", many tend to think about a related but somewhat separate problem. Being a well-defined criminal offense, "violent rape" has established solutions. "Date rape" and "'can't say no'-rape", not so much. So it becomes only natural that people would tell you to go to the police.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  What language would you suggest be used instead of the word "rape"?
  - egeozcan 12y ago
    I'm not a native English speaker and I wouldn't bet on myself coming up with an appropriate description. However, using any word would be perfectly fine if the authors dedicate a short paragraph at the beginning explaining what they mean by the words they use, especially if they don't mean the same things most people are used to. I keep getting down-voted, so, maybe it helps to repeat: I'm not saying that this isn't as bad as "violent rape", but we have to have a common understanding before people start coming up with useful solutions (I, for example, support systems for reporting such incidents being enforced for companies) and we do need useful solutions. Disclaimer: I'm a guy who found someone he cares about, in such a situation. Going to police was the worst idea, ever.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      I'm not among your downvotes, and I don't believe you're minimizing rape (of the obviously violent or not obviously violent sort), though I can see how some could see it that way; the fact that you're a non-native speaker may also be contributing to it, though I think your English is quite good, and I believe I understood you the first time. I asked for suggestions for alternatives not as a challenge, but as a sincere question. I don't think it's the worst idea ever, but I think there is risk involved. The kind of person that would use a phrase like "real rape" s the kind of person that would use the new term to minimize the experience. And, there is also risk in saying that rape that does not include bruises, blood, kicking, screaming, etc. is not violent, which is probably the biggest problem with using terminology like "violent rape" and "not violent rape", because all rape is an act of violence. And, just in case there is any thought that I am exaggerating about the existence of assholes who would claim rape without obvious violence isn't really ape. An American lawmaker used the term "legitimate rape" a couple of years ago when explaining why a woman shouldn't be able to get an abortion even in the event of rape, because if it was a "legitimate rape" she wouldn't have gotten pregnant. This is a pretty widespread opinion about rape; that a "legitimate rape" is an obviously violent one, with screaming and fighting, and anything else doesn't really deserve to be called rape or treated like rape. Source on the "legitimate rape" comment: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/19/todd-akin-abortion-legitimate-rape_n_1807381.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/19/todd-akin-abortion-...
randyrand 12y ago
"(and wouldn't consent when sober)" What you would have done sober is completely irrelevant (for both parties). Most states define alcohol related rape as "too drunk to consent." That is all we need to be concerned about.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  You bring up a useful point (and I upvoted you back out of the grey because of it), though I think I disagree with where you're going with it. There is simply no such thing as meaningful consent when someone is intoxicated. Someone else brought up the idea of "grey area sex", with the example of two intoxicated parties. This happens enough between willing participants that we can't simply wave it away as "never OK, always rape", but we also can't say that just because a person was too drunk to say no that they can't have been raped (as more than a few people in positions of power have said or implied, even in this decade). Anyway, my concern with waving away this situation ("they were both drunk") as being not rape (or both parties being in the wrong), is that it can and is used by people who want to victimize others without consequence. I've known a man who used this approach; it eventually came out that he'd used the tactic on a number of occasions to rape several of our mutual friends. His modus operandi was to encourage heavy drinking or drug use, isolate the woman (to "take care of her" or "make sure she gets home OK"), and then have sex with her, whether she was willing or not. When questions were raised by his male friends about stuff like this, he would wave it off with a "I don't really remember, we were both so wasted", and his male friends would shrug and say, "Oh, OK, I guess shit happens." It took an organized effort by women in our social circle to put a stop to it. I think what makes this hard to grasp for most men is that most men don't want to do this. Most men want to have sex with people who reciprocate the feeling. So, when a woman comes forward and says, "This happened to me. A man did this to me." A lot of men process that first through their lens of, "I would never do that. I can't believe she says men do stuff like that. This can't be true!" I've rambled way off topic of your comment, I guess. Sorry about that. My mind is kinda a maelstrom of competing thoughts and trying to understand the mindset that leads to some of the comments in this thread, and also trying to figure out how to make my thoughts more clear to people who are so clearly at odds with where my head is at on the issue.
randyrand 12y ago
"submitting" should not be confused with "took effort but convinced them to have sex with you" Saying no and resisting is different than convincing someone to have sex with you. The previous is rape. The latter can often just be part of courtship. At the end of the day, it should be rather obvious if you're raping someone or not.

ricardobeat 12y ago

I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I being too naive?

SwellJoe 12y ago
"is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault?" Not that I'm aware of (and I'm relatively familiar with the feminist activist community and current feminist writing). I read it to mean she was raped by a colleague, not that she was sexually assaulted by a colleague, though either would be inexcusable and should be subject to the person being fired. But, again, in a workplace that is hostile to women, dismissive of women's words, and in which the person doing the raping or sexual assaulting or harassing is in a position of power over the women being raped, assaulted, or harassed, it can go on for a long time before someone is willing to throw away their career to make a public accusation, which is exactly what this article is about and why I think it's valuable. There are, clearly, a lot of men in our industry who have literally no idea that this stuff is happening. Zero awareness to the point their instinctive response is to deny that it is true, or to attempt to redefine the words to mean something more palatable. So, let me be clear: You've read an article about someone's experience in the workplace as a woman, and you're first response is effectively to say, "This cannot be true." The author of this article is not the only woman to discuss these issues or to experience this kind of behavior in the workplace, particularly in tech though it is true in many industries. As long as the response of men in this industry is to read these experiences and immediately deny the words and counter-accuse the woman of lying, exaggerating, or "being dramatic", the problems will never go away.
- ricardobeat 12y ago
  I asked a honest question and did not accuse the author of lying. I really can't get my mind around such violence being common in the workplace without the attackers suffering any consequences. I'm astonished.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    Apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. In my experience, denial is a very common response from men when faced with this kind of story. It is disappointingly common among men in tech, in particular.
    - pgeorgi 12y ago
      And the accusations are equally predictable and disappointing. Maybe some (or many) those "disappointingly common" cases aren't quite the clear-cut misogyny but more similar to what you ran into in this thread?
      - SwellJoe 12y ago
        This conversation has a few misunderstandings (all of which, I think, have been resolved through polite clarification) and a number of clear examples of misogyny, which are more difficult to resolve through mere clarification.
stefantalpalaru 12y ago
> is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault? Yes, there's a dangerous trend towards redefining rape to include unwanted looks, bad vibes, sex while intoxicated, sex that you change your mind about after the fact, sex that was not good enough, etc.
- tomlock 12y ago
  Source?
  - stefantalpalaru 12y ago
    "MS. SOMMERS: I interviewed a young women at the University of Pennsylvania who came in in a short skirt and she was in the Women's Center, and I think she thought I was one of the sisterhood.And she said, 'Oh, I just suffered a mini-rape.' And I said, 'What happened?' And she said, 'A boy walked by me and said, `Nice legs'.'You know? And that -- and this young woman considers this a form of rape!" - http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript132.html http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript132.html "psychological rape" - http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Goshen-college-psychological-rape.jpg http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014... "For some females the trauma of eve teasing is almost equivalent to a mini rape which leads to depression and suicide." - http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/for-some-women-eveteasing-trauma-equal-to-minirape-expert/1013433/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/for-some-women-eveteas... "the little rapes" - http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Little-Rapes.jpg http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2013... "Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." - http://books.google.it/books?id=rxE8FQzjpYMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=%22I+call+it+rape+whenever+a+woman+has+sex+and+feels+violated.%22+%22feminism+unmodified%22&source=bl&ots=wfCI5gi20P&sig=m26x9vX0tW2aVzI28IttUDtPX-c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B6h0UtryBrOtsATjxIHoBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22I%20call%20it%20rape%20whenever%20a%20woman%20has%20sex%20and%20feels%20violated.%22%20%22feminism%20unmodified%22&f=false http://books.google.it/books?id=rxE8FQzjpYMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA8...
    - tomlock 12y ago

egeozcan 12y ago

I have a hopefully helpful objection to the use of the word "rape" to describe anything other than "violent rape": While I understand the need to put a strong word to describe the perversity of the offence (which surely isn't less than "violent rape"), the obvious problem is "date rape" and similar are sadly not very well-known. So, when you just say "rape", many tend to think about a related but somewhat separate problem. Being a well-defined criminal offense, "violent rape" has established solutions. "Date rape" and "'can't say no'-rape", not so much. So it becomes only natural that people would tell you to go to the police.

SwellJoe 12y ago
What language would you suggest be used instead of the word "rape"?
- egeozcan 12y ago
  I'm not a native English speaker and I wouldn't bet on myself coming up with an appropriate description. However, using any word would be perfectly fine if the authors dedicate a short paragraph at the beginning explaining what they mean by the words they use, especially if they don't mean the same things most people are used to. I keep getting down-voted, so, maybe it helps to repeat: I'm not saying that this isn't as bad as "violent rape", but we have to have a common understanding before people start coming up with useful solutions (I, for example, support systems for reporting such incidents being enforced for companies) and we do need useful solutions. Disclaimer: I'm a guy who found someone he cares about, in such a situation. Going to police was the worst idea, ever.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    I'm not among your downvotes, and I don't believe you're minimizing rape (of the obviously violent or not obviously violent sort), though I can see how some could see it that way; the fact that you're a non-native speaker may also be contributing to it, though I think your English is quite good, and I believe I understood you the first time. I asked for suggestions for alternatives not as a challenge, but as a sincere question. I don't think it's the worst idea ever, but I think there is risk involved. The kind of person that would use a phrase like "real rape" s the kind of person that would use the new term to minimize the experience. And, there is also risk in saying that rape that does not include bruises, blood, kicking, screaming, etc. is not violent, which is probably the biggest problem with using terminology like "violent rape" and "not violent rape", because all rape is an act of violence. And, just in case there is any thought that I am exaggerating about the existence of assholes who would claim rape without obvious violence isn't really ape. An American lawmaker used the term "legitimate rape" a couple of years ago when explaining why a woman shouldn't be able to get an abortion even in the event of rape, because if it was a "legitimate rape" she wouldn't have gotten pregnant. This is a pretty widespread opinion about rape; that a "legitimate rape" is an obviously violent one, with screaming and fighting, and anything else doesn't really deserve to be called rape or treated like rape. Source on the "legitimate rape" comment: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/19/todd-akin-abortion-legitimate-rape_n_1807381.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/19/todd-akin-abortion-...

randyrand 12y ago

"(and wouldn't consent when sober)" What you would have done sober is completely irrelevant (for both parties). Most states define alcohol related rape as "too drunk to consent." That is all we need to be concerned about.

SwellJoe 12y ago
You bring up a useful point (and I upvoted you back out of the grey because of it), though I think I disagree with where you're going with it. There is simply no such thing as meaningful consent when someone is intoxicated. Someone else brought up the idea of "grey area sex", with the example of two intoxicated parties. This happens enough between willing participants that we can't simply wave it away as "never OK, always rape", but we also can't say that just because a person was too drunk to say no that they can't have been raped (as more than a few people in positions of power have said or implied, even in this decade). Anyway, my concern with waving away this situation ("they were both drunk") as being not rape (or both parties being in the wrong), is that it can and is used by people who want to victimize others without consequence. I've known a man who used this approach; it eventually came out that he'd used the tactic on a number of occasions to rape several of our mutual friends. His modus operandi was to encourage heavy drinking or drug use, isolate the woman (to "take care of her" or "make sure she gets home OK"), and then have sex with her, whether she was willing or not. When questions were raised by his male friends about stuff like this, he would wave it off with a "I don't really remember, we were both so wasted", and his male friends would shrug and say, "Oh, OK, I guess shit happens." It took an organized effort by women in our social circle to put a stop to it. I think what makes this hard to grasp for most men is that most men don't want to do this. Most men want to have sex with people who reciprocate the feeling. So, when a woman comes forward and says, "This happened to me. A man did this to me." A lot of men process that first through their lens of, "I would never do that. I can't believe she says men do stuff like that. This can't be true!" I've rambled way off topic of your comment, I guess. Sorry about that. My mind is kinda a maelstrom of competing thoughts and trying to understand the mindset that leads to some of the comments in this thread, and also trying to figure out how to make my thoughts more clear to people who are so clearly at odds with where my head is at on the issue.

randyrand 12y ago

"submitting" should not be confused with "took effort but convinced them to have sex with you" Saying no and resisting is different than convincing someone to have sex with you. The previous is rape. The latter can often just be part of courtship. At the end of the day, it should be rather obvious if you're raping someone or not.