6 ms·

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I cou

by hrktb 12y ago

The title with punctuation: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready To Call Somebody a Whistleblower I found it intersting, but there is a part I couldn't really understand. Does she define rape as an aggretion and not just grey area sex? Because as I understand it it would fall under criminal charges, not 'sexism', most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it, and the police arresting a co-worker wouldn't be whistleblowing, just basic law inforcement.

bluehat 12y ago
I defined rape as the kind with the (bad) screaming and the blood, or tried to. I am aware that some people steal because they are starving but most theft I have seen was somebody who wanted to prove that they could do it. In the same way, I know some people rape in other complicated situations, but the rape I have seen in my life was individuals who just wanted to prove that they could do whatever they wanted, and nobody was going to stop them. My reading does not suggest that all rape produces irrefutable physical evidence, nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety. If you have evidence to the contrary, I can't tell you how excited I'd be to hear it.
- hrktb 12y ago
  > * nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety* Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ? In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place. I understand that can feel idealistic, and some situations can be a lot more complex than that, especially when a whole industry is mainly filled with assholes in power positions. But I'd believe that making things clear (have a judge validate a claim for instance) can help to get away from overly abusive environments and alleviate the "he/she's just making stuff up" bullshit thrown around the victims.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    "In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place." This kind of language is clearly coming from a place of privilege...someone who has never experienced a workplace that is overtly hostile to your gender, and where the alternatives ("not a place I'd like to work"; most people have to work somewhere) are slim because many workplaces are overtly hostile to your gender. This is the danger of assuming that we (as males in an industry built by and for males) can actually offer useful advice or provide a path forward that fixes these problems. This is not the conversation in which you solve women's problems in tech by telling them what you would do in their situation. This is the conversation where we listen to people who have actually experienced it. (And, yes, I'm a male speaking on this subject, offering advice. But, my advice is to listen to women about their real world experiences in our industry.)
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - Dewie 12y ago
      Why do you indicate "men" as "males", but "women" as "women" and not "females"? Seems odd.
      - SwellJoe 12y ago
        I've used both terms interchangeably in several comments in this thread. I wouldn't read anything into it.
        Dewie 12y ago
        You haven't used the word "female" anywhere that I can see. :)
        12y ago
SwellJoe 12y ago
It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't take "no" for an answer and their target feels they would be in more danger from fighting than from submitting. Our justice system is not helpful to most rape victims, because it is not "real rape"; with fighting, injuries, blood, bruises, etc. And, most rape victims choose not to report the crime because it would further harm them to go through the process of being grilled by police and forced to relive the experience for an audience of likely unsympathetic or even overtly hostile people (this is not to say all police officers are unsympathetic or hostile to rape reports, but the fear that they will be is real and valid). "most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it" Most of the time it is a "he said, she said" situation, and any proof can be interpreted as consensual sex, depending on the person hearing the story.
- ricardobeat 12y ago
  I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I being too naive?
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    "is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault?" Not that I'm aware of (and I'm relatively familiar with the feminist activist community and current feminist writing). I read it to mean she was raped by a colleague, not that she was sexually assaulted by a colleague, though either would be inexcusable and should be subject to the person being fired. But, again, in a workplace that is hostile to women, dismissive of women's words, and in which the person doing the raping or sexual assaulting or harassing is in a position of power over the women being raped, assaulted, or harassed, it can go on for a long time before someone is willing to throw away their career to make a public accusation, which is exactly what this article is about and why I think it's valuable. There are, clearly, a lot of men in our industry who have literally no idea that this stuff is happening. Zero awareness to the point their instinctive response is to deny that it is true, or to attempt to redefine the words to mean something more palatable. So, let me be clear: You've read an article about someone's experience in the workplace as a woman, and you're first response is effectively to say, "This cannot be true." The author of this article is not the only woman to discuss these issues or to experience this kind of behavior in the workplace, particularly in tech though it is true in many industries. As long as the response of men in this industry is to read these experiences and immediately deny the words and counter-accuse the woman of lying, exaggerating, or "being dramatic", the problems will never go away.
tveita 12y ago
I'm sorry, could you define what you mean by "grey area sex"?
- littletimmy 12y ago
  Hard to define, but easy to give examples for. Here's one: Man drunk. Woman drunk. Man woman have sex. Technically, both of them raped each other. But this is pretty far from what you'd call rape, even if it is legally considered that. This is "grey area sex".
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    I think it becomes less grey when you think of it in terms of whether one would consent to sex when sober. i.e. if one of the parties has always wanted to have sex with the other, but the other is having none of it, and they use intoxication to get what they want, that isn't a grey area situation. That's rape. It is not a "no fault" incident. If all parties involved wanted to have sex with the other party or parties, and the opportunity arose while they were intoxicated, that's not rape. Maybe still a little grey for all parties, and possibly not good judgment. But, I think the grey area is much smaller than the instances of rape, and the fear some men seem to have of being accused of rape or similar for those extremely rare instances of "grey area" sex way overblown. There was a study recently where participants were asked if they'd ever done various things, that effectively described rape. The same participants were asked if they'd ever raped anyone. The incidence of people who said "yes" to the behaviors that describe rape was much higher than the incidence of people who said "yes" to having ever raped someone. The participants thought those were "grey areas", but most of them were pretty clearly just rape.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    Drunk sex isn't legally rape unless one of the persons is incapacitated to the point where they cannot actually consent. Drunkenness doesn't negate consent like being a minor does. Though some colleges will call it rape.
- hrktb 12y ago
  I think Littletimmy's answer is pretty much what I had in mind. To explain a bit more, there can be situation where sex happens but one of the party could not refuse for various reasons, and the other party have deniability of coercing. For instance, a boss asking an employee for sex after a diner, and the employee feels coerced but doesn't say anything. Effectively it would be rape, the boss should not be considered innocent of profiting from a position of power, but it can be argued that the employee could have legitimely wanted to have sex judging from his/her attitude. For me that's grey in the sense that while from the employee's point of view it's rape, from a third party point of view it's hard to factually prove so. To be clear, I don't use 'grey' in the sense that it should not be punishable or anything, it's not a value judgement, just that from a legal point of view it's trickier than violent rape.
needacig 12y ago
She explains that she could not have reported the rape without destroying most of her personal and professional relationships, because the perpetrator was someone who was central in her social circles. See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542 I think this is pretty common and is why many rapes go un-reported. Reporting some criminal stranger on the street who jumps you seems like a no brainer to me, but reporting someone you thought was a friend and who is friends with most of your friends? I bet a lot of people decide it's not worth upending their lives and starting over for.

by hrktb 12y ago

bluehat 12y ago

I defined rape as the kind with the (bad) screaming and the blood, or tried to. I am aware that some people steal because they are starving but most theft I have seen was somebody who wanted to prove that they could do it. In the same way, I know some people rape in other complicated situations, but the rape I have seen in my life was individuals who just wanted to prove that they could do whatever they wanted, and nobody was going to stop them. My reading does not suggest that all rape produces irrefutable physical evidence, nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety. If you have evidence to the contrary, I can't tell you how excited I'd be to hear it.

hrktb 12y ago
> * nor do I feel confident that reporting rape to our existing justice system would save me from further humiliation and other professional/personal consequences while providing safety* Has there ever been any evidence that charging a person of power of any crime comes with protection from collateral professional/personal consequences ? In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place. I understand that can feel idealistic, and some situations can be a lot more complex than that, especially when a whole industry is mainly filled with assholes in power positions. But I'd believe that making things clear (have a judge validate a claim for instance) can help to get away from overly abusive environments and alleviate the "he/she's just making stuff up" bullshit thrown around the victims.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  "In my personal view, getting raped is enough violence that I wouldn't prioritise my professional or personal comfort over getting justice. I am also considering that if some place would refuse me a job because I got someone charged for a criminal offence, perhaps that's not a place I'd like to work for in the first place." This kind of language is clearly coming from a place of privilege...someone who has never experienced a workplace that is overtly hostile to your gender, and where the alternatives ("not a place I'd like to work"; most people have to work somewhere) are slim because many workplaces are overtly hostile to your gender. This is the danger of assuming that we (as males in an industry built by and for males) can actually offer useful advice or provide a path forward that fixes these problems. This is not the conversation in which you solve women's problems in tech by telling them what you would do in their situation. This is the conversation where we listen to people who have actually experienced it. (And, yes, I'm a male speaking on this subject, offering advice. But, my advice is to listen to women about their real world experiences in our industry.)
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Dewie 12y ago
    Why do you indicate "men" as "males", but "women" as "women" and not "females"? Seems odd.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      I've used both terms interchangeably in several comments in this thread. I wouldn't read anything into it.
      - Dewie 12y ago
        You haven't used the word "female" anywhere that I can see. :)
        12y ago

SwellJoe 12y ago

It's dangerous to go down the path of talking about "real rape", which is kinda where you seem to be going with this. Most rape is not "real rape" according to the rapist. Most rape is date rape; the rapist finds a target who is too intoxicated to meaningfully consent (and wouldn't consent when sober), or the rapist is in a position of power over their target (such as a manager with an employee), or they simply don't take "no" for an answer and their target feels they would be in more danger from fighting than from submitting. Our justice system is not helpful to most rape victims, because it is not "real rape"; with fighting, injuries, blood, bruises, etc. And, most rape victims choose not to report the crime because it would further harm them to go through the process of being grilled by police and forced to relive the experience for an audience of likely unsympathetic or even overtly hostile people (this is not to say all police officers are unsympathetic or hostile to rape reports, but the fear that they will be is real and valid). "most of the time there would be physical/tangible proofs attached to it" Most of the time it is a "he said, she said" situation, and any proof can be interpreted as consensual sex, depending on the person hearing the story.

ricardobeat 12y ago
I honestly had a similar question in mind. The phrases "raped by a colleague — not just once, but several times over months" and "female colleagues told me later that he raped some of them, and in much the same way my attacker had raped me." got me confused. Rape is defined as "unlawful sexual intercourse", is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass other kinds of sexual assault? Or am I being too naive?
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  "is there a movement towards broadening that definition to encompass any kind of sexual assault?" Not that I'm aware of (and I'm relatively familiar with the feminist activist community and current feminist writing). I read it to mean she was raped by a colleague, not that she was sexually assaulted by a colleague, though either would be inexcusable and should be subject to the person being fired. But, again, in a workplace that is hostile to women, dismissive of women's words, and in which the person doing the raping or sexual assaulting or harassing is in a position of power over the women being raped, assaulted, or harassed, it can go on for a long time before someone is willing to throw away their career to make a public accusation, which is exactly what this article is about and why I think it's valuable. There are, clearly, a lot of men in our industry who have literally no idea that this stuff is happening. Zero awareness to the point their instinctive response is to deny that it is true, or to attempt to redefine the words to mean something more palatable. So, let me be clear: You've read an article about someone's experience in the workplace as a woman, and you're first response is effectively to say, "This cannot be true." The author of this article is not the only woman to discuss these issues or to experience this kind of behavior in the workplace, particularly in tech though it is true in many industries. As long as the response of men in this industry is to read these experiences and immediately deny the words and counter-accuse the woman of lying, exaggerating, or "being dramatic", the problems will never go away.

tveita 12y ago

I'm sorry, could you define what you mean by "grey area sex"?

littletimmy 12y ago
Hard to define, but easy to give examples for. Here's one: Man drunk. Woman drunk. Man woman have sex. Technically, both of them raped each other. But this is pretty far from what you'd call rape, even if it is legally considered that. This is "grey area sex".
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  I think it becomes less grey when you think of it in terms of whether one would consent to sex when sober. i.e. if one of the parties has always wanted to have sex with the other, but the other is having none of it, and they use intoxication to get what they want, that isn't a grey area situation. That's rape. It is not a "no fault" incident. If all parties involved wanted to have sex with the other party or parties, and the opportunity arose while they were intoxicated, that's not rape. Maybe still a little grey for all parties, and possibly not good judgment. But, I think the grey area is much smaller than the instances of rape, and the fear some men seem to have of being accused of rape or similar for those extremely rare instances of "grey area" sex way overblown. There was a study recently where participants were asked if they'd ever done various things, that effectively described rape. The same participants were asked if they'd ever raped anyone. The incidence of people who said "yes" to the behaviors that describe rape was much higher than the incidence of people who said "yes" to having ever raped someone. The participants thought those were "grey areas", but most of them were pretty clearly just rape.
- rhino369 12y ago
  Drunk sex isn't legally rape unless one of the persons is incapacitated to the point where they cannot actually consent. Drunkenness doesn't negate consent like being a minor does. Though some colleges will call it rape.
hrktb 12y ago
I think Littletimmy's answer is pretty much what I had in mind. To explain a bit more, there can be situation where sex happens but one of the party could not refuse for various reasons, and the other party have deniability of coercing. For instance, a boss asking an employee for sex after a diner, and the employee feels coerced but doesn't say anything. Effectively it would be rape, the boss should not be considered innocent of profiting from a position of power, but it can be argued that the employee could have legitimely wanted to have sex judging from his/her attitude. For me that's grey in the sense that while from the employee's point of view it's rape, from a third party point of view it's hard to factually prove so. To be clear, I don't use 'grey' in the sense that it should not be punishable or anything, it's not a value judgement, just that from a legal point of view it's trickier than violent rape.

needacig 12y ago

She explains that she could not have reported the rape without destroying most of her personal and professional relationships, because the perpetrator was someone who was central in her social circles. See her comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9168542 I think this is pretty common and is why many rapes go un-reported. Reporting some criminal stranger on the street who jumps you seems like a no brainer to me, but reporting someone you thought was a friend and who is friends with most of your friends? I bet a lot of people decide it's not worth upending their lives and starting over for.