7 ms·

rot?

ErrantX 17y ago
All the guff about having legit medical purposes makes it safe for legalisation :) (how many other drugs are used for medical purposes that are not legal generally; pain medication for example) And the other thing about it being less harmful than alcohol (which is more of a case for banning alcohol really ;)). Round and round we go :) It's important to remember that by that Alcohol and Tobacco is NOT at all safe - it causes society and individuals no end of problems. Do we want to add another drug to that mess :P It's important to consider everything in perspective rather than just go with either the govt. line or the supposed experts line (for example we have one here in the UK on record saying ecstasy is no more dangerous than horse riding - which might be statistically true but, as most here will appreciate, is just sensationalism that ignores the obvious problems :D) EDIT: I should point out I am biased; one of my friends was killed after smoking marijuana and driving and another friend is now a dribbling wreck after 10 years regular smoking (one of the smartest people I know now has the intelligence of a 15 year old). I dont see how these problems wont be multiplied :)
- steiger 17y ago
  Add another drug? Millions of people already smoke pot in America today, and legalising it will only make it safer. EDIT: Also, I feel sorry about your friends, but it is my view that this is not what happens with the majority of the users, and the laws should adapt to that reality.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    Unfortunately no it wont. The 2 places it has been tried the experiment failed reasonably badly (portugal and amsterdam). There certainly wasnt an outbreak of drug deaths - but the situation didnt improve as much as people tend to claim. (sorry this is no place to have the discussion :) Ill shaddup) EDIT: thanks for the condolences. Unfortunately I disgree; through them I explored (but never joined thankfully) the drugs sub culture in Leeds (UK). If that is in anyway representative, and I see no reason to suspect otherwise, this is the norm. I also have a friend in his 40's who grows his own drugs and is fairly well adjusted (if a little air headed and often stoned). From my experience, though, he is the exception not the rule.
    - steiger 17y ago
      How did it fail, exactly? According to Wikipedia, drug use in the Netherlands is lower than America's in every possible category. The number of drug-related deaths in the Netherlands is lower than the EU average. The Dutch Government is able to help 90% of the drug users that seek help. Sorry, can't see that as 'failure'. Legalization makes marijuana (and other drugs) safer for a lot of reasons: 1. You could buy pot from government-controlled places, where quality of the drug is guaranteed (no fillers!). 2. Users whom drug intake become problematic can legitimately seek help, which is more unlikely if your drug of choice is illegal and stigmatized in your society. 3. You don't have to get into illegal, dangerous drug trade in order to get your drug of choice. You can buy pot in the nearest coffee shop, safely (for example). That surely happened in the Netherlands. I fail to see it as failure. What I see as failure is the growth of a culture that condemns drug use, as if it is something absurd and immoral, when in fact it _isn't_. People has been smoking pot world-wide, for thousands of years, without causing harm to others. I could go on and on about the immorality and degenerating effects on society caused by the _drug war_, which is much more damaging than drug use itself, but I think I'll stop here. EDIT: I'd like to make clear that, although a pot smoker myself, I don't think using drugs is inherently good or bad. In fact, in most cases, it can be (very) bad. But the fact is that people do drugs and will always do drugs, most without major bad consequences for themselves and others. Drug use is a fact in most societies (if not all), and that being so, it would be better that we manage it the best way we can. Criminalizing it certainly is not the best way (probably the worse).
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Yes the drug use is lower; what they never say is that it was lower anyway. And is still comparable to other EU countries with much much stricter drugs laws. Also they are not the lowest in the EU. I do feel like points 2 and 3 could be fixed without legalising. Point 1 is something I dont feel would happen anyway; it would have to be opened up to companies (and taxed). Which potentially ends up legitimising the drugs gangs :) could go on and on about the immorality and degenerating effects on society caused by the _drug war_, which is much more damaging than drug use itself, but I think I'll stop here. This is a dangerous argument; Im not sure legalising drugs would stop all that. Firstly because there are plenty of other drugs. And secondly because there is no way they would let the drugs be legalised without a fight. These are serious, organised and very rich gangs. ------ I should also ask if you've been to Amsterdam; they are very strict about smoking on the street. And possibly stricter on drinking in the street. A large number of the coffee shops have been closed down too (and they are by no means "safe" in the way you suggest).
- billpg 17y ago
  "I should point out I am biased; one of my friends was killed after smoking marijuana and driving and another friend is now a dribbling wreck after 10 years regular smoking (one of the smartest people I know now has the intelligence of a 15 year old). I dont see how these problems wont be multiplied :)" Would you prefer that your friends were instead locked up with several murderers and rapists?
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    Well yes.......... rather than be dead.... Seriously though I dont think many people are actually locked up for use nowadays. Im willing to be corrected but I haven't, in my experience, seen it much. As mentioned below I believe personal possession laws should be refactored towards education, support and therapy (if desired)
    - steiger 17y ago
      That depends on the location. I think that in the USA people are still being locked up for marijuana use, although I guess that trend is thankfully going down. Can anyone confirm that? Here where I live, in Brazil, you will get a lot of hassle if you're caught for marijuana possession. If you're black or poor, you're probably going to get a lot more hassle (being beaten up and being locked up for some time are almost certain to happen). Generally, you can get away with 10 grams or something like that, but not without hassle. You better pray to Jah to not get caught :)
- sokoloff 17y ago
  But those pain meds are not listed on the DEA's Schedule I of drugs with high potential for abuse and no medical purposes. And therefore, those pain meds ARE legal (with a prescription), research can widely be done on them and variants, etc. Alcohol and tobacco are not safe. Neither are red meat, fugu, skydiving, unpasteurized cheese, automobiles, bicycles, and 100s of other things (even including water!), that I'd prefer the freedom to enjoy if I choose, and for science to have the freedom to research. I'm long past the point in my life where I'm likely to develop a drug problem. My 7 month old daughter is still too young, but I honestly WANT her to grow up in a world where the government exerts less control and influence than it does now. Do I hope she smokes weed when she grows up? Ideally not, but I want that choice to be hers, not mine, yours or the government's.

rot?

All the guff about having legit medical purposes makes it safe for legalisation :) (how many other drugs are used for medical purposes that are not legal generally; pain medication for example) And the other thing about it being less harmful than alcohol (which is more of a case for banning alcohol really ;)). Round and round we go :) It's important to remember that by that Alcohol and Tobacco is NOT at all safe - it causes society and individuals no end of problems. Do we want to add another drug to that mess :P It's important to consider everything in perspective rather than just go with either the govt. line or the supposed experts line (for example we have one here in the UK on record saying ecstasy is no more dangerous than horse riding - which might be statistically true but, as most here will appreciate, is just sensationalism that ignores the obvious problems :D) EDIT: I should point out I am biased; one of my friends was killed after smoking marijuana and driving and another friend is now a dribbling wreck after 10 years regular smoking (one of the smartest people I know now has the intelligence of a 15 year old). I dont see how these problems wont be multiplied :)

steiger 17y ago
Add another drug? Millions of people already smoke pot in America today, and legalising it will only make it safer. EDIT: Also, I feel sorry about your friends, but it is my view that this is not what happens with the majority of the users, and the laws should adapt to that reality.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Unfortunately no it wont. The 2 places it has been tried the experiment failed reasonably badly (portugal and amsterdam). There certainly wasnt an outbreak of drug deaths - but the situation didnt improve as much as people tend to claim. (sorry this is no place to have the discussion :) Ill shaddup) EDIT: thanks for the condolences. Unfortunately I disgree; through them I explored (but never joined thankfully) the drugs sub culture in Leeds (UK). If that is in anyway representative, and I see no reason to suspect otherwise, this is the norm. I also have a friend in his 40's who grows his own drugs and is fairly well adjusted (if a little air headed and often stoned). From my experience, though, he is the exception not the rule.
  - steiger 17y ago
    How did it fail, exactly? According to Wikipedia, drug use in the Netherlands is lower than America's in every possible category. The number of drug-related deaths in the Netherlands is lower than the EU average. The Dutch Government is able to help 90% of the drug users that seek help. Sorry, can't see that as 'failure'. Legalization makes marijuana (and other drugs) safer for a lot of reasons: 1. You could buy pot from government-controlled places, where quality of the drug is guaranteed (no fillers!). 2. Users whom drug intake become problematic can legitimately seek help, which is more unlikely if your drug of choice is illegal and stigmatized in your society. 3. You don't have to get into illegal, dangerous drug trade in order to get your drug of choice. You can buy pot in the nearest coffee shop, safely (for example). That surely happened in the Netherlands. I fail to see it as failure. What I see as failure is the growth of a culture that condemns drug use, as if it is something absurd and immoral, when in fact it _isn't_. People has been smoking pot world-wide, for thousands of years, without causing harm to others. I could go on and on about the immorality and degenerating effects on society caused by the _drug war_, which is much more damaging than drug use itself, but I think I'll stop here. EDIT: I'd like to make clear that, although a pot smoker myself, I don't think using drugs is inherently good or bad. In fact, in most cases, it can be (very) bad. But the fact is that people do drugs and will always do drugs, most without major bad consequences for themselves and others. Drug use is a fact in most societies (if not all), and that being so, it would be better that we manage it the best way we can. Criminalizing it certainly is not the best way (probably the worse).
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Yes the drug use is lower; what they never say is that it was lower anyway. And is still comparable to other EU countries with much much stricter drugs laws. Also they are not the lowest in the EU. I do feel like points 2 and 3 could be fixed without legalising. Point 1 is something I dont feel would happen anyway; it would have to be opened up to companies (and taxed). Which potentially ends up legitimising the drugs gangs :) could go on and on about the immorality and degenerating effects on society caused by the _drug war_, which is much more damaging than drug use itself, but I think I'll stop here. This is a dangerous argument; Im not sure legalising drugs would stop all that. Firstly because there are plenty of other drugs. And secondly because there is no way they would let the drugs be legalised without a fight. These are serious, organised and very rich gangs. ------ I should also ask if you've been to Amsterdam; they are very strict about smoking on the street. And possibly stricter on drinking in the street. A large number of the coffee shops have been closed down too (and they are by no means "safe" in the way you suggest).
billpg 17y ago
"I should point out I am biased; one of my friends was killed after smoking marijuana and driving and another friend is now a dribbling wreck after 10 years regular smoking (one of the smartest people I know now has the intelligence of a 15 year old). I dont see how these problems wont be multiplied :)" Would you prefer that your friends were instead locked up with several murderers and rapists?
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Well yes.......... rather than be dead.... Seriously though I dont think many people are actually locked up for use nowadays. Im willing to be corrected but I haven't, in my experience, seen it much. As mentioned below I believe personal possession laws should be refactored towards education, support and therapy (if desired)
  - steiger 17y ago
    That depends on the location. I think that in the USA people are still being locked up for marijuana use, although I guess that trend is thankfully going down. Can anyone confirm that? Here where I live, in Brazil, you will get a lot of hassle if you're caught for marijuana possession. If you're black or poor, you're probably going to get a lot more hassle (being beaten up and being locked up for some time are almost certain to happen). Generally, you can get away with 10 grams or something like that, but not without hassle. You better pray to Jah to not get caught :)
sokoloff 17y ago
But those pain meds are not listed on the DEA's Schedule I of drugs with high potential for abuse and no medical purposes. And therefore, those pain meds ARE legal (with a prescription), research can widely be done on them and variants, etc. Alcohol and tobacco are not safe. Neither are red meat, fugu, skydiving, unpasteurized cheese, automobiles, bicycles, and 100s of other things (even including water!), that I'd prefer the freedom to enjoy if I choose, and for science to have the freedom to research. I'm long past the point in my life where I'm likely to develop a drug problem. My 7 month old daughter is still too young, but I honestly WANT her to grow up in a world where the government exerts less control and influence than it does now. Do I hope she smokes weed when she grows up? Ideally not, but I want that choice to be hers, not mine, yours or the government's.