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Of course... various industries have found that certifications without an education path tie-in are near-pointless. Why? Because nobody can figure out how to do

Of course... various industries have found that certifications without an education path tie-in are near-pointless. Why? Because nobody can figure out how to do certification exams very well. What a useful certification usually actually says isn't "this person can use this tool", it's "this person has been educated in a certain way and paid attention during that education, leading to the ability to use this tool". For the vast, vast majority of certs out there where you don't have to take a course to take the exam, you can knowledge-cram for a comparatively short period of time, then take the exam without actually having much experience, even if "only" in a lab, then forget most of what you've learned shortly afterwards. As a result, few employers care about them. If you want to do certs separate from education paths, you have to figure out a better way of testing people - possibly real-world (or at least lab-based, scenario-oriented) testing over a period of time.

sago 12y ago
Right. I partially agree. Which is why separate certification hasn't succeeded yet. It is, I'd suggest, an area ripe for disruption. Where I disagree is the tacit implication that, therefore university education is somehow better at being an indicator of those skills and qualities. I've seen a lot of terrible graduates who I wouldn't employ if they paid me: graduates who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag. So I'd respectfully disagree with that implication.
- vertex-four 12y ago
  > Where I disagree is the tacit implication that, therefore university education is somehow better at being an indicator of those skills and qualities. It does tend to be a better indicator - just because it's not perfect doesn't make it the same.
ninguem2 12y ago
Actuaries seem to have managed to separate education and certification.
- giaour 12y ago
  Kinda. In all 50 states, you need to complete 150 credit hours to be eligible to sit for the exam, i.e., undergrad + one year of grad school. Most state-administered professional certification exams have similar eligibility requirements.
  - leviself 12y ago
    You appear to be thinking of the CPA requirement which is for accountants, not actuaries. I'm an actuary, and the education requirements are thin https://www.soa.org/Education/Exam-Req/edu-vee.aspx https://www.soa.org/Education/Exam-Req/edu-vee.aspx. You could theoretically get certified with only high school and work experience, although I don't think any employers would hire someone without a bachelor's. The degree can really be in anything though as long as you've passed an exam or two, as this shows an employer that you're serious and have learned at least something. I believe the system works in our case because there is an ecosystem of employers, employees, recruiters, and government agencies that all buy into the exam process. It's sort of a throwback guild system that's not very similar to IT certifications such as CCNA.
Chathamization 12y ago
Being a CFA carries a lot of weight. It seems like certifications (unsurprisingly) work when a lot of effort has been made to set up the certifications properly. The reason why we haven't seen such an effort in a lot of areas is probably because most places are relying on college degrees.
- vertex-four 12y ago
  > The reason why we haven't seen such an effort in a lot of areas is probably because most places are relying on college degrees. In the world of IT, university degrees mean very little, as universities almost universally fail to teach anything useful for that industry. There's still very few certs that mean anything. At the entry level, all of the certs are dreadful, and past the entry level, experience usually matters more than what certs you have.
- smm2000 12y ago
  CFA requires bachelor degree, four years of professional experience and series of exams with cumulative passing rate of 16% - so it's not just certification.
- ghaff 12y ago
  It also helps when a certification is testing to a relative specific and concrete set of knowledge. Some IT certs are certainly better than others and they probably speak more to some base level of knowledge as opposed to real competence. That said, it's easier to use a test (preferably with a hands-on component) to test for $TECH administration competence than it is to test for computer science competence in a broad sense.
vegedor 12y ago
Bearing a certificate is not a proof of capability, it's a promise the employer can demand to be fulfilled.

sago 12y ago

Right. I partially agree. Which is why separate certification hasn't succeeded yet. It is, I'd suggest, an area ripe for disruption. Where I disagree is the tacit implication that, therefore university education is somehow better at being an indicator of those skills and qualities. I've seen a lot of terrible graduates who I wouldn't employ if they paid me: graduates who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag. So I'd respectfully disagree with that implication.

vertex-four 12y ago
> Where I disagree is the tacit implication that, therefore university education is somehow better at being an indicator of those skills and qualities. It does tend to be a better indicator - just because it's not perfect doesn't make it the same.

ninguem2 12y ago

Actuaries seem to have managed to separate education and certification.

giaour 12y ago
Kinda. In all 50 states, you need to complete 150 credit hours to be eligible to sit for the exam, i.e., undergrad + one year of grad school. Most state-administered professional certification exams have similar eligibility requirements.
- leviself 12y ago
  You appear to be thinking of the CPA requirement which is for accountants, not actuaries. I'm an actuary, and the education requirements are thin https://www.soa.org/Education/Exam-Req/edu-vee.aspx https://www.soa.org/Education/Exam-Req/edu-vee.aspx. You could theoretically get certified with only high school and work experience, although I don't think any employers would hire someone without a bachelor's. The degree can really be in anything though as long as you've passed an exam or two, as this shows an employer that you're serious and have learned at least something. I believe the system works in our case because there is an ecosystem of employers, employees, recruiters, and government agencies that all buy into the exam process. It's sort of a throwback guild system that's not very similar to IT certifications such as CCNA.

Chathamization 12y ago

Being a CFA carries a lot of weight. It seems like certifications (unsurprisingly) work when a lot of effort has been made to set up the certifications properly. The reason why we haven't seen such an effort in a lot of areas is probably because most places are relying on college degrees.

vertex-four 12y ago
> The reason why we haven't seen such an effort in a lot of areas is probably because most places are relying on college degrees. In the world of IT, university degrees mean very little, as universities almost universally fail to teach anything useful for that industry. There's still very few certs that mean anything. At the entry level, all of the certs are dreadful, and past the entry level, experience usually matters more than what certs you have.
smm2000 12y ago
CFA requires bachelor degree, four years of professional experience and series of exams with cumulative passing rate of 16% - so it's not just certification.
ghaff 12y ago
It also helps when a certification is testing to a relative specific and concrete set of knowledge. Some IT certs are certainly better than others and they probably speak more to some base level of knowledge as opposed to real competence. That said, it's easier to use a test (preferably with a hands-on component) to test for $TECH administration competence than it is to test for computer science competence in a broad sense.

vegedor 12y ago

Bearing a certificate is not a proof of capability, it's a promise the employer can demand to be fulfilled.