7 ms·

Off-topic, but not unrelated. She is also the author of this article: https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47c18 https://medium.com/@kelly

Off-topic, but not unrelated. She is also the author of this article: https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47c18 https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47... Directly from the article: "This is why any man who is a stranger and tries to talk to me when I’m minding my own business is likely to be met with defensiveness and/or aggression. [...] If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple. You are threatening. And you need to leave me the fuck alone."

Dewie 12y ago
Radical feminists sometimes have surprisingly similar opinions on stranger man to stranger woman interactions compared to people from Saudi Arabia.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  I can see why you might say that superficially, but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, whereas Saudi religious authorities believe in dictating to women who they can interact with. So in fact, they're almost polar opposite positions.
  - leereeves 12y ago
    Isn't she dictating who men can even try to interact with? She didn't say "Leave me alone if I ask you to." She once wrote that a man is a harasser for trying: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. It's a strange exercise. If she literally means that even glancing in her direction is harassment, that is pretty extreme, but if you glance at someone and they don't seem to notice you, it's probably not the right time to hit them up for a conversation.
      - leereeves 12y ago
        > You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. That's quite a leap from my question. And not an answer.
        maxerickson 12y ago
        It is an answer! Your question is based on the premise that "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple." is complete and accurate description of what she believes. That premise is difficult to prove in either direction. It happens all the time that an essay exaggerates a message in order to make that message stand out.
        leereeves 12y ago
        > It happens all the time that an essay exaggerates a message in order to make that message stand out. I hope she's not doing that. Sincerely.
        maxerickson 12y ago
        Why? What message do you read in the blog post? I see someone explaining that they have actually been mistreated by people 'just trying to make conversation' and that this makes it difficult for them to have any desire to ever 'just make conversation'. Sure, it's a miserable outcome if she sees the world of strangers as a hostile place, but it seems it might be based on experience.
        leereeves 12y ago
        > I see someone explaining that they have actually been mistreated by people 'just trying to make conversation' I'm sympathetic, but harasser is a serious word. It's not something that should be exaggerated in order to make a message stand out.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    Obviously the comparison is far from perfect. But to my knowledge, if a strange man approached strange woman in SA, he could get in trouble for that. There are expectations and restrictions on both sexes, which ultimately leads to the situation where strange men and women can't interact. If I'm mistaken and men can interact freely with strange women in SA, then my bad. And obviously she wouldn't be the one who laid down the law in that country. But the eventual outcome would have been the same. > , but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, So, a strange man should just hold his peace unless spoken to? That sounds familiar. Either that or none of the sexes are allowed to initiate contact with another. Which again leads to the comparison to SA. EDIT: Imagine if a woman from non-SA thought "I want to live under Sharia Law" (for whatever reason). She could then make the free choice to move to SA. Now, while in SA, she would have the same (lack of) woman rights as other women in SA. But it was her own choice to put herself in that situation. In the same sense, women are freely able to express that they want something like sex segregation in "our" society. That is a free choice on their part. But if that somehow comes reality, they might not have so much free choice any more, if SA is any indication. But those two moments in time are different with regards to freedom of choice.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Shorel 12y ago
  That seems like yet another case of the Horseshoe theory.
bshimmin 12y ago
What she describes in the first few paragraphs of the article is obviously horrible, but the closing paragraph, which you quote, is also totally insane. I was in London a few weeks ago, meeting some clients; my aged iPhone had run out of battery and, not being blessed with a watch, I had no way of telling the time (yes, this is a stupid situation and I felt like an idiot). I was loitering outside my client's offices and knew it was roughly the right time because the coffee shop I'd been in just before had had a clock, but I didn't particularly want to arrive overly early. A person, who happened to be a woman, walked past me, and I stopped her, politely, and asked her for the time, which she duly told me. I thanked her and she went on her way. Does that count as harassment or threatening behaviour? After all, I'm a white male, a little over 6ft tall, with a shaved head and often a beard, and she was a woman, alone, probably walking to or from her office.
- archagon 12y ago
  I'm 95% sure sure that "tries to talk to me" means "approaches me and tries to have a conversation", not "asks me if I have the time". See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9165486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9165486
- prezjordan 12y ago
  No, it doesn't. If you had scanned the woman up and down very slowly as she walked towards you, then offered a creepy smile saying "hi" then yes I would most certainly call that threatening behavior. No one here is claiming you can't talk to women.
codecamper 12y ago
Hmm, if you are a harasser by trying to talk to someone... then when & where will you meet the man of your dreams? After a while, most people exhaust the dating options within their friendship circles. Many girls welcome these sorts of chances to talk with a man. Maybe the general problem being a woman in tech is that you just have way too many men around & so through the normal course of male -> female flirting women feel overwhelmed and overburdened. Thing is, I'd guess most techie guys are super shy. "You look like a rockstar in that bathing suit. " Isn't that just a compliment from a shy, probably very sweet, Indian boy? Well it's hard to say without actually being there in that situation.
archagon 12y ago
Maybe the experiences discussed by women in this thread[1] will help you understand why this is actually a reasonable stance to take. EDIT: Here's a good elucidatory comment[2]. And another thread of stories[3]. And another[4]. If you react with venom to statements like the one quoted, then you are not listening. [1]: http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading#2777344 http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading#2777344 [2]: http://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/15kix9/im_tired_of_young_women/c7nd1m8 http://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/15kix9/im_tired_... [3]: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2ij22p/what_was_the_scariest_instance_of_street/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2ij22p/what_was_th... [4]: http://www.metafilter.com/143994/10-hours-of-street-harrassment-edited-down-to-two-minutes http://www.metafilter.com/143994/10-hours-of-street-harrassm...
- Dewie 12y ago
  No one seems to like things like racial profiling. But sexual profiling is apparently A-ok. EDIT: So many downvotes, such lack of rebuttals.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    Are you suggesting that individual women being (justifiably) suspicious of strange men hassling them on the street is analogous to police officers and other agents of the state disproportionately arresting racial minorities? What would make you think is a sensible or illuminating analogy? As with your other comment in this thread comparing feminists with Saudi Muftis, this is a shallow and superficial analogy that obscures more than it reveals.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      My bad. I thought "racial profiling" was more generic and not about law enforcement in particular. I meant "racial profiling" as in all everyday racism that is motivated by other people being suspicious, cautious and actively hostile towards people because they associate them with, or have bad experiences with, other people of the same race. If you want to talk about "justifiable", then we can also talk about how "racial profiling" can be very pragmatic and not just blind racism. Maybe being extra suspicious around a black man keeps you from being mugged? Maybe you have lived in a bad part of town and "racial profiling" has helped you keep out of trouble? And although it might be pragmatic, it's a disturbing practice in itself, and it's not really fair either. It's not simply "justifiable", end of story. It has wider implications. But people like you have too much tunnel vision to see the similarity, and the common hypocrisy around this subject. "Schrodinger's rapist"? Nice hate speech, if I'm allowed to use that as a more generic term.

Dewie 12y ago

Radical feminists sometimes have surprisingly similar opinions on stranger man to stranger woman interactions compared to people from Saudi Arabia.

ForHackernews 12y ago
I can see why you might say that superficially, but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, whereas Saudi religious authorities believe in dictating to women who they can interact with. So in fact, they're almost polar opposite positions.
- leereeves 12y ago
  Isn't she dictating who men can even try to interact with? She didn't say "Leave me alone if I ask you to." She once wrote that a man is a harasser for trying: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. It's a strange exercise. If she literally means that even glancing in her direction is harassment, that is pretty extreme, but if you glance at someone and they don't seem to notice you, it's probably not the right time to hit them up for a conversation.
    - leereeves 12y ago
      > You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. That's quite a leap from my question. And not an answer.
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        It is an answer! Your question is based on the premise that "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple." is complete and accurate description of what she believes. That premise is difficult to prove in either direction. It happens all the time that an essay exaggerates a message in order to make that message stand out.
        leereeves 12y ago
        > It happens all the time that an essay exaggerates a message in order to make that message stand out. I hope she's not doing that. Sincerely.
        maxerickson 12y ago
        Why? What message do you read in the blog post? I see someone explaining that they have actually been mistreated by people 'just trying to make conversation' and that this makes it difficult for them to have any desire to ever 'just make conversation'. Sure, it's a miserable outcome if she sees the world of strangers as a hostile place, but it seems it might be based on experience.
        leereeves 12y ago
        > I see someone explaining that they have actually been mistreated by people 'just trying to make conversation' I'm sympathetic, but harasser is a serious word. It's not something that should be exaggerated in order to make a message stand out.
- Dewie 12y ago
  Obviously the comparison is far from perfect. But to my knowledge, if a strange man approached strange woman in SA, he could get in trouble for that. There are expectations and restrictions on both sexes, which ultimately leads to the situation where strange men and women can't interact. If I'm mistaken and men can interact freely with strange women in SA, then my bad. And obviously she wouldn't be the one who laid down the law in that country. But the eventual outcome would have been the same. > , but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, So, a strange man should just hold his peace unless spoken to? That sounds familiar. Either that or none of the sexes are allowed to initiate contact with another. Which again leads to the comparison to SA. EDIT: Imagine if a woman from non-SA thought "I want to live under Sharia Law" (for whatever reason). She could then make the free choice to move to SA. Now, while in SA, she would have the same (lack of) woman rights as other women in SA. But it was her own choice to put herself in that situation. In the same sense, women are freely able to express that they want something like sex segregation in "our" society. That is a free choice on their part. But if that somehow comes reality, they might not have so much free choice any more, if SA is any indication. But those two moments in time are different with regards to freedom of choice.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Shorel 12y ago
That seems like yet another case of the Horseshoe theory.

bshimmin 12y ago

What she describes in the first few paragraphs of the article is obviously horrible, but the closing paragraph, which you quote, is also totally insane. I was in London a few weeks ago, meeting some clients; my aged iPhone had run out of battery and, not being blessed with a watch, I had no way of telling the time (yes, this is a stupid situation and I felt like an idiot). I was loitering outside my client's offices and knew it was roughly the right time because the coffee shop I'd been in just before had had a clock, but I didn't particularly want to arrive overly early. A person, who happened to be a woman, walked past me, and I stopped her, politely, and asked her for the time, which she duly told me. I thanked her and she went on her way. Does that count as harassment or threatening behaviour? After all, I'm a white male, a little over 6ft tall, with a shaved head and often a beard, and she was a woman, alone, probably walking to or from her office.

archagon 12y ago
I'm 95% sure sure that "tries to talk to me" means "approaches me and tries to have a conversation", not "asks me if I have the time". See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9165486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9165486
prezjordan 12y ago
No, it doesn't. If you had scanned the woman up and down very slowly as she walked towards you, then offered a creepy smile saying "hi" then yes I would most certainly call that threatening behavior. No one here is claiming you can't talk to women.

codecamper 12y ago

Hmm, if you are a harasser by trying to talk to someone... then when & where will you meet the man of your dreams? After a while, most people exhaust the dating options within their friendship circles. Many girls welcome these sorts of chances to talk with a man. Maybe the general problem being a woman in tech is that you just have way too many men around & so through the normal course of male -> female flirting women feel overwhelmed and overburdened. Thing is, I'd guess most techie guys are super shy. "You look like a rockstar in that bathing suit. " Isn't that just a compliment from a shy, probably very sweet, Indian boy? Well it's hard to say without actually being there in that situation.

archagon 12y ago

Maybe the experiences discussed by women in this thread[1] will help you understand why this is actually a reasonable stance to take. EDIT: Here's a good elucidatory comment[2]. And another thread of stories[3]. And another[4]. If you react with venom to statements like the one quoted, then you are not listening. [1]: http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading#2777344 http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading#2777344 [2]: http://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/15kix9/im_tired_of_young_women/c7nd1m8 http://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/15kix9/im_tired_... [3]: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2ij22p/what_was_the_scariest_instance_of_street/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/2ij22p/what_was_th... [4]: http://www.metafilter.com/143994/10-hours-of-street-harrassment-edited-down-to-two-minutes http://www.metafilter.com/143994/10-hours-of-street-harrassm...

Dewie 12y ago
No one seems to like things like racial profiling. But sexual profiling is apparently A-ok. EDIT: So many downvotes, such lack of rebuttals.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  Are you suggesting that individual women being (justifiably) suspicious of strange men hassling them on the street is analogous to police officers and other agents of the state disproportionately arresting racial minorities? What would make you think is a sensible or illuminating analogy? As with your other comment in this thread comparing feminists with Saudi Muftis, this is a shallow and superficial analogy that obscures more than it reveals.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    My bad. I thought "racial profiling" was more generic and not about law enforcement in particular. I meant "racial profiling" as in all everyday racism that is motivated by other people being suspicious, cautious and actively hostile towards people because they associate them with, or have bad experiences with, other people of the same race. If you want to talk about "justifiable", then we can also talk about how "racial profiling" can be very pragmatic and not just blind racism. Maybe being extra suspicious around a black man keeps you from being mugged? Maybe you have lived in a bad part of town and "racial profiling" has helped you keep out of trouble? And although it might be pragmatic, it's a disturbing practice in itself, and it's not really fair either. It's not simply "justifiable", end of story. It has wider implications. But people like you have too much tunnel vision to see the similarity, and the common hypocrisy around this subject. "Schrodinger's rapist"? Nice hate speech, if I'm allowed to use that as a more generic term.