20 ms·

Ex Google engineer claims she was harassed and “Google did nothing about it”

64 points by aestetix 12y ago

datashovel 12y ago
I'm just as much pro-women's rights as anybody, but a few things I was thinking while reading this: 1) "grab your ass" comment happened in Maui, which I'm assuming is not on work premises or during a work-related event. In cases like this a simple "please keep your comments to yourself. I don't feel comfortable with you saying this." would be appropriate and I think respected. It nips the issue in the bud. Pouring a drink on someone is not necessarily the best way to communicate that. And next time don't accept the invitation if you don't feel comfortable around them. In my experience it's not common that this sort of comment will be made without some level of prior assurance (flirting?) that the comment wasn't entirely inappropriate. 2) claims "let me be in a position where I couldn't be promoted" but without details. This sounds like paranoia to me. I have never heard of a company explicitly denying promotions to people in certain positions. Google is in the internet business, but most importantly they're in the business of making money. If you prove that you're valuable to them making money, then you're valuable to the company. Bottom-line. As a side-note, Google has just as much of a responsibility to the other employee to get the story straight. Allegedly nothing was done to reprimand the perpetrator. This is likely because 3rd party observers (also Google employees?) probably provided 3rd party testimony that it was no big deal which would likely help as a deciding factor. Of course they likely told the guy not to let it happen again. If there's no 3rd party testimony and it's not on premises or at a work-function what do you expect your employer to do about it? Another point I would make is that the paranoia could be because people stopped interacting with her as often or inviting her to social gatherings. What you don't think about necessarily is that people will stop talking to you if they think you'll accuse them of something or if you're overly sensitive. It's human nature. I don't want to offend someone if they're overly sensitive, and it's less fun being around people like that, so if I'm just socializing I'm going to be considerate and NOT invite them to social gatherings because I don't want you to be offended. After all I can't control what others will say or do when we're out having a drink. 3) "you look amazing in that bathing suit" seems like an attempt to flatter someone. I didn't know they wear bathing suits to work at Google :) It's what guys do to girls. They compliment them. And girls generally accept the flattery and say thank you. If you don't like that it's fine, just let people know and they more than likely will be happy to oblige. 4) "drinks after work". This is again a situation outside of work. You're not required to be there. If you find that it's not a social circle you want to be a part of you don't have to be. I do get that social settings is where you can establish deeper levels of trust with people within an organization, and so that can be perceived as a roadblock to advancement. In this case I can't see how Google the organization can legally control this, except to work on balancing the ratios. But that is also not necessarily a gender-related issue. Girls don't get along with girls in social settings also at comparable ratios if not more often. But if the organization you're a part of is controlled by people with personalities you don't mesh well with, and you can't be moved laterally within the organization then it's time to move on. If someone finds it hard to get along with most people within an organization it is always worth the time it takes to self-reflect to determine if it's your issue and not theirs. Especially in a company as large as Google. 5) Unrelated, but similar situation. A past co-worker complained in a meeting they felt awkward when we used the word "penetration". We were an internet marketing company, so "market penetration" is a common term within the industry. But to satisfy her wishes we did our best to stop using the term. No questions asked. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_penetration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_penetration] I can assure you no one in the meeting was thinking of that other kind of "penetration" but her.
- datashovel 12y ago
  On a slightly more personal note (to fend off what may be perceived as a male-oriented view of this where we're always the aggressor). After work one night when I was younger, a large group of co-workers went into town to a bar for some drinks. We were all pretty much lit up by the end of the night and decided to split a taxi. I ended up sitting next to a female co-worker. In no particularly suggestive way I asked if I could lay my head down in her lap for the ride because I was tired. Moments later when I was comfortable (head facing straight up) she proceeded to lean over so as to smash her breasts into my face and then started making out with me. I didn't want to make a big scene at the time, and we were pretty drunk, so I went with it. This, obviously, is far more suggestive and invasive than words. But I'm a heterosexual guy. This actually happened. I didn't feel violated. I didn't feel I needed to address it. I couldn't breathe for a second, but other than that I was fine. We continued to be friends and co-workers. She was embarrassed when I told her the next day that I didn't want to pursue things, but everything was fine. I continued to respect her just as if nothing had happened between us. No need to get our company involved. I don't know about her, but for me everything was just as normal as before but it didn't happen again because we were on the same page after that.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > 3) "you look amazing in that bathing suit" seems like an attempt to flatter someone. I didn't know they wear bathing suits to work at Google :) It's what guys do to girls. They compliment them. And girls generally accept the flattery and say thank you. If you don't like that it's fine, just let people know and they more than likely will be happy to Do not "flatter" people on their appearance unless they are a family member or close friend.
  - datashovel 12y ago
    I agree to a point. I think the general rules of thumb would be more along the lines of, "don't flatter someone in a suggestive or inappropriate way". Some people work very hard on their appearance. I would go so far as to say it (their looks) is, to a large extent, who they are. That's not to say they are necessarily shallow people either. They find pleasure and take pride in keeping up with their looks and overall aesthetic. So if you're out and meet someone who might be a friend of a friend / co-worker, or a co-worker from another department who you may not have met before, if they look like they've gone above and beyond to look good, they more often than not will appreciate the compliments. If you don't look like you've put all that effort into your looks (which is not to say you purposefully try to look ugly) more often than not you will not receive those compliments.
cpks 12y ago
I hate the public shaming. If you're in a position like this, two choices: 1) Leave and get a better job 2) Leave and sue I've been in companies with claimed harassment. It's gone both ways -- about 50/50. In about half the cases, the victim perceived something that was clearly not there, ranging from: * Complete delusion, in the case of one person with severe emotional problems * A case where we had an someone with autism who would treat everyone in the same inappropriate way -- not understanding eye contact, personal space, etc., and one person who interacted occasionally felt targeted and harassed). * A case where someone was just an asshole and hard-ass. Equal opportunity. But one person felt targeted. People aren't perfect. This kind of accusation, even unsubstantiated, can ruin a career. I wish people wouldn't pull this shit.
- tajen 12y ago
  In case of public shaming, it is important to note that it is a public defamation. If your point wasn't proven (=recognized by a court), then the company can ask for damages, so you may have to go for a trial anyway. Moreover, too many male's careers were broken by illegitimate morale accusations, which doesn't do any good for peace with women. So I agree wich cpks, either sue and prove your point or don't say it. Edit: klodolph is correct, I didn't think laws of US could be that much opposite from Europe (France in my case).
  - threeseed 12y ago
    No sensible company is going to sue an alleged victim of sexual abuse whose only complaint is that allegations were not probably dealt with. It is more a fault of Google for not resolving the issue in a way that left her not feeling like she needed to leave. And I am sorry but if you think this will result in some "war with women" then I fear for the IT industry. Professional conduct is what should be expected. It works for every other industry.
  - klodolph 12y ago
    > If your point wasn't proven (=recognized by a court), then the company can ask for damages This is so far off the mark it's ridiculous. US defamation law is much less friendly to plaintiffs compared to most European countries, especially the UK (for example). This may surprise you, but in the US, it is not enough for the plaintiff to prove that a defamatory statement is false. You have to also prove that the defendant knew the statement to be false, or you have to prove negligence by "clear and convincing evidence". This is for private plaintiffs, the standard for "public figures" is higher. I can recognize the attitude that "if you can't prove it in court, then shut up", but there are always going to be a few really important things that you want to say that can't be proven in court. I'm not saying this is one of those times (it really isn't) but those times exist. And I'm not taking sides on this particular case, just to be absolutely clear.
Red_Tarsius 12y ago
> About 83 percent of its software engineers are men, according to a recent New York Times report. On a side note, I'm tired of high percentage arguments, I've seen it in countless articles. There's NOTHING inherently wrong in the ratio itself.
- tajen 12y ago
  This. We need equal opportunity and chances for everyone. It doesn't matter that a group doesn't have enough women yet, as long as all women and males today have equal chances of getting a nice career.
  - egwor 12y ago
    and the equal chance (opportunity) of progression
    - collyw 12y ago
      As long as they put in equal effort into their career and don't go taking a few years out to look after their offspring or whatever else takes their fancy. (Men are capable of doing that as well as women these days aren't they?)
- threeseed 12y ago
  This opinion has been shown time and time again to be wrong by countless studies and real life examples. Having an imbalance of gender, age, race etc causes problems as it skews the corporate culture. So long as everyone is professional I personally don't see it being a catastrophic problem. But it is a major problem that the IT industry needs to continue to work on. More females in SME is something we should all strive for.
  - bprieto 12y ago
    How exactly would you achieve that balance? Rejecting good male candidates in favor or worse female ones? Creating make-believe positions for women? If the percentage of females working in IT reflects the percentage of females with IT studies or interested in IT, I don't see a problem. Or at least I don't see a problem in the workspace. Maybe it's a problem of education, but I'm not sure even if this is the case or just a simple matter of different preferences between men and woman.
sauere 12y ago
> Ellis' Twitter profile reads, "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." Stopped reading here.
- aluhut 12y ago
  I wonder how she expects to deliver a believable message with such a claim on top. Or how she expects to get a job in a company where there are also man...? I mean, who would hire such a person?
  - judk 12y ago
    Medium.com did
- thejaredhooper 12y ago
  This article is another symptom of journalism becoming sensationalism. The fact that this snippet was included, and that the public shaming was made into an article at all, is extremely deplorable. Because of the way this article was presented, I've reserved forming an opinion of Ellis or her alleged harasser. It's skewed to make both parties look bad, and based off hearsay. The article did not reveal Ellis' overreaction to her harassment until after the allegations were repeated multiple times. It's ridiculous they didn't present everything at once, instead of attempting to lead our opinions. The whole article was crap.
  - leereeves 12y ago
    I hesitate to call this site journalism. Top news on their front page right now: What to Take on Your Bikepacking Trip Man Beaten While Boozing in Washington Square The Bay Area Is Full of Skinny People Unruly Patron Gets Booted From Bar, Returns and Shoots Out Window
    - thejaredhooper 12y ago
      Reprehensible.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
threeseed 12y ago
Pretty terrible situation for all involved. Whenever there is a he-said/she-said situation without objective proof there really isn't a lot of options. All that is really left in terms of options for the victim is to leave whilst the perpetrator continues their life. This leaves public shaming as the victim's only way to fight back. The only way to solve this is basically to limit social activities in which incidents like this can happen e.g. drinking or going to the beach.
- droopyEyelids 12y ago
  You're right, but some dangerous situations can be tolerated if the benefits outweigh the negatives. But anyway, what happened to keeping a work diary, building evidence, and then creating a court case? It's not a perfect system, but filing a lawsuite has way less chance of creating blowback than starting a social media battle. Plus it can be useful to keep a work journal for many other reasons.
tzs 12y ago
Earlier discussion, with many comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163309 The submitted link is different there, but the link on this submission is cited in the comments there.
drcross 12y ago
I think it's terrible when people who appear to be neurotic get a platform of attention by misusing a system that is supposed to protect legitimate victims. If they are the worst claims that she can come up with, she is making a mockery of people who have actually been harassed in the workplace.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  > 'It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now,' That's not sexual harassment to you? Is there anything you would consider inappropriate enough to merit a "legitimate" complaint? I'm frankly shocked by how many people on HN seem to think this is no big deal. I guess I've been spoiled by always working at companies full of responsible professionals, but if HN is reflective of attitudes in the wider industry, then things really need to change.
  - rukittenme 12y ago
    I think the main problem is we have a set of unsubstantiated claims. HN is avoiding rushing to judgement on the situation ... while simultaneously rushing to judge this woman's mental state. I get the feeling a couple people have an ax to grind and the majority are just following along because it looks like reasoned discourse.
  - thisisnotatest 12y ago
    It's the ever-reliable Lewis's Law: "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."
kofejnik 12y ago
Even if the events took place as she claimed, where's the harassment? Two guys found her attractive and told her so, what's the drama? Pretty sure if this went any further (i.e. they had power over her and tried to coerce her into something), she wouldn't hesitate to tell. So far, it looks like tumblrina with a mission.
- Dewie 12y ago
  It's considered harassment because they (or at least one of them) were her superiors. The problem is the power dynamic.
  - bobcoat 12y ago
    what do you mean power dynamic
  - leereeves 12y ago
    That's what I thought too, now I'm not so sure: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
    - Dewie 12y ago
      Her attitude and what happened are two separate things. Given that she isn't lying, it doesn't matter what her opinion on interacting with strange men are (radical as they are). It doesn't change what happened to her.
      - leereeves 12y ago
        What harassment is depends on who you ask. If you mean the legal definition, consider that even different courts often disagree.
  - kofejnik 12y ago
    Your wording suggests there's a universally accepted standard of what exactly constitutes harassment. As noted in comments below, courts tend to disagree. Personally, I believe that one radfem with agenda and no real proof should not be able to ruin careers and lives by twitter.
ksec 12y ago
I dont live in US, so it is rather strange from an outsider prospective seeing US as being "open" with sex. (Must have been largely influenced by US TV series ) "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star" Why does that, count as sexual harassment? May be he said it with his tone, eyes and looks?
- DanBC 12y ago
  They were work colleagues. You don't talk about wanting to grab your work colleague's ass.
- bluthru 12y ago
  It makes her uncomfortable and it has nothing to do with her job. In the workplace, you don't blurt out everything that comes to mind even if you feel a certain way or even if you mean it with good intentions. She wasn't hired by Google to look good, she was hired to be a good developer. Vic G telling her that she looks good in a bathing suit makes her question why she's there and what her bosses motivations are. Everyone has a right to feel comfortable in the workplace.
- bhayden 12y ago
  He is judging her on her appearance. That she is in a bathing suit means he is judging, essentially, her naked body. It is an insanely creepy thing for your boss to comment on and is sexual in nature.
xacaxulu 12y ago
Reminds me of the GitHub case. "harassment" is the new "I didn't like how things shook out".
Rainymood 12y ago
Off-topic, but not unrelated. She is also the author of this article: https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47c18 https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47... Directly from the article: "This is why any man who is a stranger and tries to talk to me when I’m minding my own business is likely to be met with defensiveness and/or aggression. [...] If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple. You are threatening. And you need to leave me the fuck alone."
- Dewie 12y ago
  Radical feminists sometimes have surprisingly similar opinions on stranger man to stranger woman interactions compared to people from Saudi Arabia.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    I can see why you might say that superficially, but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, whereas Saudi religious authorities believe in dictating to women who they can interact with. So in fact, they're almost polar opposite positions.
    - leereeves 12y ago
      Isn't she dictating who men can even try to interact with? She didn't say "Leave me alone if I ask you to." She once wrote that a man is a harasser for trying: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
      - maxerickson 12y ago
        You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. It's a strange exercise. If she literally means that even glancing in her direction is harassment, that is pretty extreme, but if you glance at someone and they don't seem to notice you, it's probably not the right time to hit them up for a conversation.
hudibras 12y ago
It's gonna be fun watching all the HN libertarian-types clutching their pearls at an American exercising her First Amendment right to free speech.
codecamper 12y ago
There are women who have a deep dislike of men. Can be caused by not that great fathers, or maybe a string of horrible boyfriends. Maybe watching too many of the wrong sort of movie or reading the wrong sort of books. Who knows! So... it's not the woman's fault. Everybody starts out wanting to be good. But women that do not like men really do exist! (Speaking from some experience here)
Mikeb85 12y ago
Let's see, Twitter shaming and a Twitter history of feminist trolling... From the article, more disclosure of the possible events: > She then added "full disclosure. I'm not proud, I poured a drink on him. It became about that." Seems to me when you combine beaches and alcohol while on a staff getaway, things may get slightly out of hand. Not exactly sexual harassment in the office kind of stuff...
Touqeer 12y ago
google.com

64 points by aestetix 12y ago

I'm just as much pro-women's rights as anybody, but a few things I was thinking while reading this: 1) "grab your ass" comment happened in Maui, which I'm assuming is not on work premises or during a work-related event. In cases like this a simple "please keep your comments to yourself. I don't feel comfortable with you saying this." would be appropriate and I think respected. It nips the issue in the bud. Pouring a drink on someone is not necessarily the best way to communicate that. And next time don't accept the invitation if you don't feel comfortable around them. In my experience it's not common that this sort of comment will be made without some level of prior assurance (flirting?) that the comment wasn't entirely inappropriate. 2) claims "let me be in a position where I couldn't be promoted" but without details. This sounds like paranoia to me. I have never heard of a company explicitly denying promotions to people in certain positions. Google is in the internet business, but most importantly they're in the business of making money. If you prove that you're valuable to them making money, then you're valuable to the company. Bottom-line. As a side-note, Google has just as much of a responsibility to the other employee to get the story straight. Allegedly nothing was done to reprimand the perpetrator. This is likely because 3rd party observers (also Google employees?) probably provided 3rd party testimony that it was no big deal which would likely help as a deciding factor. Of course they likely told the guy not to let it happen again. If there's no 3rd party testimony and it's not on premises or at a work-function what do you expect your employer to do about it? Another point I would make is that the paranoia could be because people stopped interacting with her as often or inviting her to social gatherings. What you don't think about necessarily is that people will stop talking to you if they think you'll accuse them of something or if you're overly sensitive. It's human nature. I don't want to offend someone if they're overly sensitive, and it's less fun being around people like that, so if I'm just socializing I'm going to be considerate and NOT invite them to social gatherings because I don't want you to be offended. After all I can't control what others will say or do when we're out having a drink. 3) "you look amazing in that bathing suit" seems like an attempt to flatter someone. I didn't know they wear bathing suits to work at Google :) It's what guys do to girls. They compliment them. And girls generally accept the flattery and say thank you. If you don't like that it's fine, just let people know and they more than likely will be happy to oblige. 4) "drinks after work". This is again a situation outside of work. You're not required to be there. If you find that it's not a social circle you want to be a part of you don't have to be. I do get that social settings is where you can establish deeper levels of trust with people within an organization, and so that can be perceived as a roadblock to advancement. In this case I can't see how Google the organization can legally control this, except to work on balancing the ratios. But that is also not necessarily a gender-related issue. Girls don't get along with girls in social settings also at comparable ratios if not more often. But if the organization you're a part of is controlled by people with personalities you don't mesh well with, and you can't be moved laterally within the organization then it's time to move on. If someone finds it hard to get along with most people within an organization it is always worth the time it takes to self-reflect to determine if it's your issue and not theirs. Especially in a company as large as Google. 5) Unrelated, but similar situation. A past co-worker complained in a meeting they felt awkward when we used the word "penetration". We were an internet marketing company, so "market penetration" is a common term within the industry. But to satisfy her wishes we did our best to stop using the term. No questions asked. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_penetration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_penetration] I can assure you no one in the meeting was thinking of that other kind of "penetration" but her.

datashovel 12y ago
On a slightly more personal note (to fend off what may be perceived as a male-oriented view of this where we're always the aggressor). After work one night when I was younger, a large group of co-workers went into town to a bar for some drinks. We were all pretty much lit up by the end of the night and decided to split a taxi. I ended up sitting next to a female co-worker. In no particularly suggestive way I asked if I could lay my head down in her lap for the ride because I was tired. Moments later when I was comfortable (head facing straight up) she proceeded to lean over so as to smash her breasts into my face and then started making out with me. I didn't want to make a big scene at the time, and we were pretty drunk, so I went with it. This, obviously, is far more suggestive and invasive than words. But I'm a heterosexual guy. This actually happened. I didn't feel violated. I didn't feel I needed to address it. I couldn't breathe for a second, but other than that I was fine. We continued to be friends and co-workers. She was embarrassed when I told her the next day that I didn't want to pursue things, but everything was fine. I continued to respect her just as if nothing had happened between us. No need to get our company involved. I don't know about her, but for me everything was just as normal as before but it didn't happen again because we were on the same page after that.
DanBC 12y ago
> 3) "you look amazing in that bathing suit" seems like an attempt to flatter someone. I didn't know they wear bathing suits to work at Google :) It's what guys do to girls. They compliment them. And girls generally accept the flattery and say thank you. If you don't like that it's fine, just let people know and they more than likely will be happy to Do not "flatter" people on their appearance unless they are a family member or close friend.
- datashovel 12y ago
  I agree to a point. I think the general rules of thumb would be more along the lines of, "don't flatter someone in a suggestive or inappropriate way". Some people work very hard on their appearance. I would go so far as to say it (their looks) is, to a large extent, who they are. That's not to say they are necessarily shallow people either. They find pleasure and take pride in keeping up with their looks and overall aesthetic. So if you're out and meet someone who might be a friend of a friend / co-worker, or a co-worker from another department who you may not have met before, if they look like they've gone above and beyond to look good, they more often than not will appreciate the compliments. If you don't look like you've put all that effort into your looks (which is not to say you purposefully try to look ugly) more often than not you will not receive those compliments.

cpks 12y ago

I hate the public shaming. If you're in a position like this, two choices: 1) Leave and get a better job 2) Leave and sue I've been in companies with claimed harassment. It's gone both ways -- about 50/50. In about half the cases, the victim perceived something that was clearly not there, ranging from: * Complete delusion, in the case of one person with severe emotional problems * A case where we had an someone with autism who would treat everyone in the same inappropriate way -- not understanding eye contact, personal space, etc., and one person who interacted occasionally felt targeted and harassed). * A case where someone was just an asshole and hard-ass. Equal opportunity. But one person felt targeted. People aren't perfect. This kind of accusation, even unsubstantiated, can ruin a career. I wish people wouldn't pull this shit.

tajen 12y ago
In case of public shaming, it is important to note that it is a public defamation. If your point wasn't proven (=recognized by a court), then the company can ask for damages, so you may have to go for a trial anyway. Moreover, too many male's careers were broken by illegitimate morale accusations, which doesn't do any good for peace with women. So I agree wich cpks, either sue and prove your point or don't say it. Edit: klodolph is correct, I didn't think laws of US could be that much opposite from Europe (France in my case).
- threeseed 12y ago
  No sensible company is going to sue an alleged victim of sexual abuse whose only complaint is that allegations were not probably dealt with. It is more a fault of Google for not resolving the issue in a way that left her not feeling like she needed to leave. And I am sorry but if you think this will result in some "war with women" then I fear for the IT industry. Professional conduct is what should be expected. It works for every other industry.
- klodolph 12y ago
  > If your point wasn't proven (=recognized by a court), then the company can ask for damages This is so far off the mark it's ridiculous. US defamation law is much less friendly to plaintiffs compared to most European countries, especially the UK (for example). This may surprise you, but in the US, it is not enough for the plaintiff to prove that a defamatory statement is false. You have to also prove that the defendant knew the statement to be false, or you have to prove negligence by "clear and convincing evidence". This is for private plaintiffs, the standard for "public figures" is higher. I can recognize the attitude that "if you can't prove it in court, then shut up", but there are always going to be a few really important things that you want to say that can't be proven in court. I'm not saying this is one of those times (it really isn't) but those times exist. And I'm not taking sides on this particular case, just to be absolutely clear.

Red_Tarsius 12y ago

> About 83 percent of its software engineers are men, according to a recent New York Times report. On a side note, I'm tired of high percentage arguments, I've seen it in countless articles. There's NOTHING inherently wrong in the ratio itself.

tajen 12y ago
This. We need equal opportunity and chances for everyone. It doesn't matter that a group doesn't have enough women yet, as long as all women and males today have equal chances of getting a nice career.
- egwor 12y ago
  and the equal chance (opportunity) of progression
  - collyw 12y ago
    As long as they put in equal effort into their career and don't go taking a few years out to look after their offspring or whatever else takes their fancy. (Men are capable of doing that as well as women these days aren't they?)
threeseed 12y ago
This opinion has been shown time and time again to be wrong by countless studies and real life examples. Having an imbalance of gender, age, race etc causes problems as it skews the corporate culture. So long as everyone is professional I personally don't see it being a catastrophic problem. But it is a major problem that the IT industry needs to continue to work on. More females in SME is something we should all strive for.
- bprieto 12y ago
  How exactly would you achieve that balance? Rejecting good male candidates in favor or worse female ones? Creating make-believe positions for women? If the percentage of females working in IT reflects the percentage of females with IT studies or interested in IT, I don't see a problem. Or at least I don't see a problem in the workspace. Maybe it's a problem of education, but I'm not sure even if this is the case or just a simple matter of different preferences between men and woman.

sauere 12y ago

> Ellis' Twitter profile reads, "bitchy software engineer. doing what i can to smash the patriarchy." Stopped reading here.

aluhut 12y ago
I wonder how she expects to deliver a believable message with such a claim on top. Or how she expects to get a job in a company where there are also man...? I mean, who would hire such a person?
- judk 12y ago
  Medium.com did
thejaredhooper 12y ago
This article is another symptom of journalism becoming sensationalism. The fact that this snippet was included, and that the public shaming was made into an article at all, is extremely deplorable. Because of the way this article was presented, I've reserved forming an opinion of Ellis or her alleged harasser. It's skewed to make both parties look bad, and based off hearsay. The article did not reveal Ellis' overreaction to her harassment until after the allegations were repeated multiple times. It's ridiculous they didn't present everything at once, instead of attempting to lead our opinions. The whole article was crap.
- leereeves 12y ago
  I hesitate to call this site journalism. Top news on their front page right now: What to Take on Your Bikepacking Trip Man Beaten While Boozing in Washington Square The Bay Area Is Full of Skinny People Unruly Patron Gets Booted From Bar, Returns and Shoots Out Window
  - thejaredhooper 12y ago
    Reprehensible.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

threeseed 12y ago

Pretty terrible situation for all involved. Whenever there is a he-said/she-said situation without objective proof there really isn't a lot of options. All that is really left in terms of options for the victim is to leave whilst the perpetrator continues their life. This leaves public shaming as the victim's only way to fight back. The only way to solve this is basically to limit social activities in which incidents like this can happen e.g. drinking or going to the beach.

droopyEyelids 12y ago
You're right, but some dangerous situations can be tolerated if the benefits outweigh the negatives. But anyway, what happened to keeping a work diary, building evidence, and then creating a court case? It's not a perfect system, but filing a lawsuite has way less chance of creating blowback than starting a social media battle. Plus it can be useful to keep a work journal for many other reasons.

tzs 12y ago

Earlier discussion, with many comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163309 The submitted link is different there, but the link on this submission is cited in the comments there.

drcross 12y ago

I think it's terrible when people who appear to be neurotic get a platform of attention by misusing a system that is supposed to protect legitimate victims. If they are the worst claims that she can come up with, she is making a mockery of people who have actually been harassed in the workplace.

ForHackernews 12y ago
> 'It's taking all of my self control not to grab your ass right now,' That's not sexual harassment to you? Is there anything you would consider inappropriate enough to merit a "legitimate" complaint? I'm frankly shocked by how many people on HN seem to think this is no big deal. I guess I've been spoiled by always working at companies full of responsible professionals, but if HN is reflective of attitudes in the wider industry, then things really need to change.
- rukittenme 12y ago
  I think the main problem is we have a set of unsubstantiated claims. HN is avoiding rushing to judgement on the situation ... while simultaneously rushing to judge this woman's mental state. I get the feeling a couple people have an ax to grind and the majority are just following along because it looks like reasoned discourse.
- thisisnotatest 12y ago
  It's the ever-reliable Lewis's Law: "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."

kofejnik 12y ago

Even if the events took place as she claimed, where's the harassment? Two guys found her attractive and told her so, what's the drama? Pretty sure if this went any further (i.e. they had power over her and tried to coerce her into something), she wouldn't hesitate to tell. So far, it looks like tumblrina with a mission.

Dewie 12y ago
It's considered harassment because they (or at least one of them) were her superiors. The problem is the power dynamic.
- bobcoat 12y ago
  what do you mean power dynamic
- leereeves 12y ago
  That's what I thought too, now I'm not so sure: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
  - Dewie 12y ago
    Her attitude and what happened are two separate things. Given that she isn't lying, it doesn't matter what her opinion on interacting with strange men are (radical as they are). It doesn't change what happened to her.
    - leereeves 12y ago
      What harassment is depends on who you ask. If you mean the legal definition, consider that even different courts often disagree.
- kofejnik 12y ago
  Your wording suggests there's a universally accepted standard of what exactly constitutes harassment. As noted in comments below, courts tend to disagree. Personally, I believe that one radfem with agenda and no real proof should not be able to ruin careers and lives by twitter.

ksec 12y ago

I dont live in US, so it is rather strange from an outsider prospective seeing US as being "open" with sex. (Must have been largely influenced by US TV series ) "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star" Why does that, count as sexual harassment? May be he said it with his tone, eyes and looks?

DanBC 12y ago
They were work colleagues. You don't talk about wanting to grab your work colleague's ass.
bluthru 12y ago
It makes her uncomfortable and it has nothing to do with her job. In the workplace, you don't blurt out everything that comes to mind even if you feel a certain way or even if you mean it with good intentions. She wasn't hired by Google to look good, she was hired to be a good developer. Vic G telling her that she looks good in a bathing suit makes her question why she's there and what her bosses motivations are. Everyone has a right to feel comfortable in the workplace.
bhayden 12y ago
He is judging her on her appearance. That she is in a bathing suit means he is judging, essentially, her naked body. It is an insanely creepy thing for your boss to comment on and is sexual in nature.

xacaxulu 12y ago

Reminds me of the GitHub case. "harassment" is the new "I didn't like how things shook out".

Rainymood 12y ago

Off-topic, but not unrelated. She is also the author of this article: https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47c18 https://medium.com/@kellyellis/commuting-by-myself-714e6dc47... Directly from the article: "This is why any man who is a stranger and tries to talk to me when I’m minding my own business is likely to be met with defensiveness and/or aggression. [...] If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple. You are threatening. And you need to leave me the fuck alone."

Dewie 12y ago
Radical feminists sometimes have surprisingly similar opinions on stranger man to stranger woman interactions compared to people from Saudi Arabia.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  I can see why you might say that superficially, but the difference is that feminists believe in empowering women to decide for themselves who they chose to interact with, whereas Saudi religious authorities believe in dictating to women who they can interact with. So in fact, they're almost polar opposite positions.
  - leereeves 12y ago
    Isn't she dictating who men can even try to interact with? She didn't say "Leave me alone if I ask you to." She once wrote that a man is a harasser for trying: "If you are a strange man trying to talk to me on my way to or from work, when I am commuting alone, you are a harasser, pure and simple."
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      You are constructing a model from a short essay that was written to convey a certain point of view and then insisting that the model you have constructed must be 100% accurate. It's a strange exercise. If she literally means that even glancing in her direction is harassment, that is pretty extreme, but if you glance at someone and they don't seem to notice you, it's probably not the right time to hit them up for a conversation.

hudibras 12y ago

It's gonna be fun watching all the HN libertarian-types clutching their pearls at an American exercising her First Amendment right to free speech.

codecamper 12y ago

There are women who have a deep dislike of men. Can be caused by not that great fathers, or maybe a string of horrible boyfriends. Maybe watching too many of the wrong sort of movie or reading the wrong sort of books. Who knows! So... it's not the woman's fault. Everybody starts out wanting to be good. But women that do not like men really do exist! (Speaking from some experience here)

Mikeb85 12y ago

Let's see, Twitter shaming and a Twitter history of feminist trolling... From the article, more disclosure of the possible events: > She then added "full disclosure. I'm not proud, I poured a drink on him. It became about that." Seems to me when you combine beaches and alcohol while on a staff getaway, things may get slightly out of hand. Not exactly sexual harassment in the office kind of stuff...

Touqeer 12y ago

google.com