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This reminds me a little of how Shaka Zulu broke from rituals to conquer most of sub-Saharan Africa. Shaka was one of the most effective African generals and co

This reminds me a little of how Shaka Zulu broke from rituals to conquer most of sub-Saharan Africa. Shaka was one of the most effective African generals and conquerers in recorded history, because he changed the nature of African warfare very quickly. Basically, pre-Shaka, warfare was a ritualized thing in the area. The tribes would take throwing spears and stand on two hilltops facing each other, and threw spears and shout at each other until one side gave up and fled. The conflicts would create injuries, but not so many fatalities. Shaka moved to a more shock troop charge style of attack. He outfitted his guys with large, wooden shields, and short, heavy spears that could slash or stab. So when the other side lined up to fight ritually, Shaka charged and would have his side massacre the other. Normally you'd see the other sides adapt, but he brutalized and then assimilated his enemies very quickly so they couldn't adjust to his tactics. He swept through Africa conquering very quickly. This has been seen many times throughout history - basically, the side of the war that fights with less rules, wins. But normally, if the other side realizes you're not fighting a gentlemanly ritual any more, they adapt. Yet a few military men in history moved so fast that their opponents couldn't adapt. Shaka, Alexander, and Genghis Khan are the first three examples that come to mind - they fought relatively dirty, breaking rituals and customs of warfare with new equipment, a more brutal focus, and immediately assimilating or executing prisoners of the defeated. Because they moved so fast, and all the survivors became either new recruits or were killed, there was no time for an organized, adapted resistance. That's how those guys were able to take such large amounts of land in short amounts of time. The ironic part is that the kind of personality that'll do that rarely knows restraint, so they overextend themselves and have their empires die after their usually premature death.

swombat 17y ago
How did Alexander fight dirty? In all the biographies I read, it seemed his "advance" was to use clever tactics, rather than to fight dirty. Would love an example of this.
- lionhearted 17y ago
  He had no regard for his troops' lives - something like 80% of his soldiers that went with him died, and he conscripted new guys everywhere he went. So he'd conscript, shock attack losing a lot of guys, then conscript from the newly defeated, and repeat. He did make advances in strategy and technology too - I believe his major military innovation was actually much longer spears than opponents, and he moved fast enough that that technology wasn't diffused and adapted. He also executed, assassinated, or otherwise brutalized his own supporters fairly often when it would advance a goal of his. Alexander's romanticized in the west, but he didn't have much respect for the lives of his soldiers and people.
nazgulnarsil 17y ago
this is really interesting. this is taking advantage of a loophole in the fact that animals evolve for this sort of "limit your losses through limited engagements" mindset. it doesn't apply if you can re-up your forces from the defeated. only works with humans because with animals you can't simply assimilate newly defeated tribes to fight for you. Do you have any sources that would be worth looking into that expand on your line of reasoning?
- lionhearted 17y ago
  Edit: This turned out to be quite a long reply. I gave examples and background from Japan's warring states era of five or six of the top generals, and which ones wound up winning. I contrasted it with two arguably more courageous and smarter generals who weren't able to consolidate power after their victories and who didn't amount to much. It's a long comment with background and links - people who like Japan, strategy, or military history might enjoy this comment, though it turned out to be one of the longer ones I've written. There's a lot of examples, but it can be hard to find them in recent history. If you're dealing with a country who has the same government or talking about a cultural icon, the tendency is to paint things black/white, good guys/bad guys. And if one side completely annihilated the other? Well, then forget about trying to get a balanced perspective. Rome completely genocided and eliminated a highly advanced society called Carthage, but it's barely a footnote on history because there's no Carthaginian side to hear. On the flipside, since both the Nationalists and Communists in China survived WWII (Taiwan and Mainland), you can read pretty balanced perspectives on both places. So that said, I'd recommend the Sengoku period of Japan if you want to learn about politics and military history. Its governmental policies are no longer in place and there were many sides keeping records. You can get a pretty good idea of what actually happened there and how the winners won. Quick background, then I'll answer your question with a few specific examples of people and battles to read up on and give Wikipedia links as a jumping off point: For most of its history, Japan had a dual power structure with the Emperor and the Shogun. The Emperor was literally God on Earth and in charge of everything. Nominally, the Shogun was the top servant of the Emperor and military commander, but the power went back and forth between them during different times. Sengoku is when the Shogunate (the central military and earthly government) completely broke down and became powerless. Japan broke into basically a 30-sided civil war, with local lords commanding small armies and attacking each other. There's three great unifiers from the Sengoku era - Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. It's interesting that those three all came from the same camp: Hideyoshi rose from being a peasant to being one of Nobunaga's top generals and later successor. Ieyasu was close allies with Nobunaga. These three men were probably not the most courageous, brilliant, or skillful of the Sengoku era. Notably, Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin were renowned for being amazing warriors and leaders. But Shingen and Kenshin got locked into a standstill battle with each other for years while Nobunaga swept through Japan conquering and assimilating people. There were lots of political marriages, and many times a father would be facing his son-in-law. Since the enemy side was frequently respectful and somewhat reverent to the enemy, often you could sign up their footsoldiers and lower ranked officers after defeating them (the higher ranked officers almost always committed ritual suicide when defeated). Anyway, this is getting quite long, but here are some links: The era itself (fascinating): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku The three great unifiers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu These two were great generals and leaders, but got so caught up in fighting to a standstill instead of win/expand/recruit that their clans were later crushed (if you read deeply into Sengoku, you start to ask, "Why didn't Uesugi Kenshin accomplish more?" I believe the answer to this question is because he was fighting to a standstill, and not expanding upon his victories): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uesugi_Kenshin#Uesugi_and_Takeda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uesugi_Kenshin#Uesugi_and_Taked... Sengoku ended at the Battle of Sekigahara, the most important battle in Japanese history. It's considered the unification of Japan, and began a 250 year reign of almost complete peace and stability in Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekigahara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekigahara Interesting note about Sekigahara - the battle was between Tokugawa Ieyasu (who won) and one of the top generals of the then-deceased Hideyoshi Toyotomi. That general's name was Mitsunari. Mitsunari was so generally offputting that that a number of lords, generals, and captains defected to Ieyasu's side because they disliked Mitsunari so much. Here's the really crazy part - Ieyasu's men caught Mitsunari, and Ieyasu ordered them to let him go so he could lead the enemy troops. He knew that there were 2 or 3 generals that would potentially defect from Mitsunari's command. So in this case, it's almost the opposite war of recruiting - poison the enemy leadership and make yourself a more attractive camp. Ieyasu did really reward and take great care of everyone who came to his side - he didn't take much luxury for himself, instead setting his son up to rule and making everyone on his side wealthy. One last one that should illustrative the point quite well: The Battle of Okehazama is one of my personal favorite battles in history. It's how Nobunaga got started. A guy named Yoshimoto was taking 35,000 troops to go crush Nobunaga and take his lands. Nobunaga took 1,500 of his best troops, snuck around behind Yoshimoto's main force, and raided Yoshimoto's camp during a heavy rain, and killed Yoshimoto. This battle set of the era - it's really amazing to read about, one of the greatest underdog stories in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okehazama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okehazama "ad Nobunaga decided on a frontal assault, the battle would have been deceptively easy to predict; his army was outnumbered ten to one by the Imagawa forces. A frontal assault would be suicidal and an attempt to hold out at Zenshō-ji would only last a few days. Because of the odds against their side, some of Nobunaga's advisers even suggested a surrender. Nobunaga, however, decided to launch a surprise attack on the Imagawa camp." "With their leader dead, and all but two of the senior officers killed, the remaining Imagawa officers joined Oda's army. Soon the Imagawa faction was no more and Oda Nobunaga was famous as his victory was hailed by many in Japan as miraculous. The most important of the samurai lords who joined Oda after this battle was Tokugawa Ieyasu from Mikawa Province. Tokugawa would remain a loyal ally of Oda from this time till Nobunaga's death."
lsd5you 17y ago
Napoleon Bonaparte was also known for breaking the rules of engagement, but i guess in his case his enemies caught up in the end.

swombat 17y ago

How did Alexander fight dirty? In all the biographies I read, it seemed his "advance" was to use clever tactics, rather than to fight dirty. Would love an example of this.

lionhearted 17y ago
He had no regard for his troops' lives - something like 80% of his soldiers that went with him died, and he conscripted new guys everywhere he went. So he'd conscript, shock attack losing a lot of guys, then conscript from the newly defeated, and repeat. He did make advances in strategy and technology too - I believe his major military innovation was actually much longer spears than opponents, and he moved fast enough that that technology wasn't diffused and adapted. He also executed, assassinated, or otherwise brutalized his own supporters fairly often when it would advance a goal of his. Alexander's romanticized in the west, but he didn't have much respect for the lives of his soldiers and people.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago

this is really interesting. this is taking advantage of a loophole in the fact that animals evolve for this sort of "limit your losses through limited engagements" mindset. it doesn't apply if you can re-up your forces from the defeated. only works with humans because with animals you can't simply assimilate newly defeated tribes to fight for you. Do you have any sources that would be worth looking into that expand on your line of reasoning?

lionhearted 17y ago
Edit: This turned out to be quite a long reply. I gave examples and background from Japan's warring states era of five or six of the top generals, and which ones wound up winning. I contrasted it with two arguably more courageous and smarter generals who weren't able to consolidate power after their victories and who didn't amount to much. It's a long comment with background and links - people who like Japan, strategy, or military history might enjoy this comment, though it turned out to be one of the longer ones I've written. There's a lot of examples, but it can be hard to find them in recent history. If you're dealing with a country who has the same government or talking about a cultural icon, the tendency is to paint things black/white, good guys/bad guys. And if one side completely annihilated the other? Well, then forget about trying to get a balanced perspective. Rome completely genocided and eliminated a highly advanced society called Carthage, but it's barely a footnote on history because there's no Carthaginian side to hear. On the flipside, since both the Nationalists and Communists in China survived WWII (Taiwan and Mainland), you can read pretty balanced perspectives on both places. So that said, I'd recommend the Sengoku period of Japan if you want to learn about politics and military history. Its governmental policies are no longer in place and there were many sides keeping records. You can get a pretty good idea of what actually happened there and how the winners won. Quick background, then I'll answer your question with a few specific examples of people and battles to read up on and give Wikipedia links as a jumping off point: For most of its history, Japan had a dual power structure with the Emperor and the Shogun. The Emperor was literally God on Earth and in charge of everything. Nominally, the Shogun was the top servant of the Emperor and military commander, but the power went back and forth between them during different times. Sengoku is when the Shogunate (the central military and earthly government) completely broke down and became powerless. Japan broke into basically a 30-sided civil war, with local lords commanding small armies and attacking each other. There's three great unifiers from the Sengoku era - Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. It's interesting that those three all came from the same camp: Hideyoshi rose from being a peasant to being one of Nobunaga's top generals and later successor. Ieyasu was close allies with Nobunaga. These three men were probably not the most courageous, brilliant, or skillful of the Sengoku era. Notably, Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin were renowned for being amazing warriors and leaders. But Shingen and Kenshin got locked into a standstill battle with each other for years while Nobunaga swept through Japan conquering and assimilating people. There were lots of political marriages, and many times a father would be facing his son-in-law. Since the enemy side was frequently respectful and somewhat reverent to the enemy, often you could sign up their footsoldiers and lower ranked officers after defeating them (the higher ranked officers almost always committed ritual suicide when defeated). Anyway, this is getting quite long, but here are some links: The era itself (fascinating): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku The three great unifiers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu These two were great generals and leaders, but got so caught up in fighting to a standstill instead of win/expand/recruit that their clans were later crushed (if you read deeply into Sengoku, you start to ask, "Why didn't Uesugi Kenshin accomplish more?" I believe the answer to this question is because he was fighting to a standstill, and not expanding upon his victories): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uesugi_Kenshin#Uesugi_and_Takeda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uesugi_Kenshin#Uesugi_and_Taked... Sengoku ended at the Battle of Sekigahara, the most important battle in Japanese history. It's considered the unification of Japan, and began a 250 year reign of almost complete peace and stability in Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekigahara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekigahara Interesting note about Sekigahara - the battle was between Tokugawa Ieyasu (who won) and one of the top generals of the then-deceased Hideyoshi Toyotomi. That general's name was Mitsunari. Mitsunari was so generally offputting that that a number of lords, generals, and captains defected to Ieyasu's side because they disliked Mitsunari so much. Here's the really crazy part - Ieyasu's men caught Mitsunari, and Ieyasu ordered them to let him go so he could lead the enemy troops. He knew that there were 2 or 3 generals that would potentially defect from Mitsunari's command. So in this case, it's almost the opposite war of recruiting - poison the enemy leadership and make yourself a more attractive camp. Ieyasu did really reward and take great care of everyone who came to his side - he didn't take much luxury for himself, instead setting his son up to rule and making everyone on his side wealthy. One last one that should illustrative the point quite well: The Battle of Okehazama is one of my personal favorite battles in history. It's how Nobunaga got started. A guy named Yoshimoto was taking 35,000 troops to go crush Nobunaga and take his lands. Nobunaga took 1,500 of his best troops, snuck around behind Yoshimoto's main force, and raided Yoshimoto's camp during a heavy rain, and killed Yoshimoto. This battle set of the era - it's really amazing to read about, one of the greatest underdog stories in history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okehazama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okehazama "ad Nobunaga decided on a frontal assault, the battle would have been deceptively easy to predict; his army was outnumbered ten to one by the Imagawa forces. A frontal assault would be suicidal and an attempt to hold out at Zenshō-ji would only last a few days. Because of the odds against their side, some of Nobunaga's advisers even suggested a surrender. Nobunaga, however, decided to launch a surprise attack on the Imagawa camp." "With their leader dead, and all but two of the senior officers killed, the remaining Imagawa officers joined Oda's army. Soon the Imagawa faction was no more and Oda Nobunaga was famous as his victory was hailed by many in Japan as miraculous. The most important of the samurai lords who joined Oda after this battle was Tokugawa Ieyasu from Mikawa Province. Tokugawa would remain a loyal ally of Oda from this time till Nobunaga's death."

lsd5you 17y ago

Napoleon Bonaparte was also known for breaking the rules of engagement, but i guess in his case his enemies caught up in the end.