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So by "gap" you mean unable to answer some trivial questions during an interview that don't pertain to the job at all? While I agree self-taught developers may

So by "gap" you mean unable to answer some trivial questions during an interview that don't pertain to the job at all? While I agree self-taught developers may lack knowledge in certain areas, they compensate by being able to learn quickly and efficiently for the job at hand. School taught, though not always, will lack that discipline and/or efficiency. At least in my experience, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

maratd 12y ago
> they compensate by being able to learn quickly and efficiently for the job at hand. We ALL need to be able to learn quickly or we simply don't last. If you've been doing this for a decade or more, you're guaranteed to have that skill in abundance, regardless of your origins. What the OP was getting at is that you get exposed to a host of different ideas and paradigms in a proper CS program. Assembly, lisp/ada/scheme/etc., C/C++/Java, graphics, computer learning, computer architecture, etc. I learned how to code when I was ten, but I would have never exposed myself to any of those things if I didn't focus on CS in college. What does that add? Exactly what the OP said. I know what I don't know. And it's a lot.
- thinkdevcode 12y ago
  > We ALL need to be able to learn quickly or we simply don't last. I totally agree with that statement. In my response, I meant that self-taught devs have a leg up, so to speak, in the beginning. In the end, we all need to learn quickly and adapt regardless of how we started. > Assembly, lisp/ada/scheme/etc., C/C++/Java, graphics, computer learning, computer architecture, etc. From my own experience as a self-taught developer, I have learned, though maybe never used professionally, almost all of those topics to some degree because I had a keen interest in understanding software and computing in general. I find that self-taught devs, though not a majority, are like that - they want to know and understand because its passion of theirs. Also, i'm not saying that university trained students lack that passion either. I believe at the end of the day it really doesnt matter whether you are self-taught or not, only the passion you bring into learning and understanding is what matters.
paragraft 12y ago
Do basic CS concepts pertain to the job? Well that depends on your job I guess. I consider them the tools of the trade that will outlast all the languages and frameworks that will come and go in a career. And you can intuitively learn them by self-teaching, but it's less certain, and just as importantly, you may not learn them in the same vocabulary as others. CS gives you a shared vocabulary for talking about these concepts with others. Given your other comment I suspect you're speaking from an observation bias leading you to judgement about the general case that doesn't necessarily stack. You witness those who've made it as devs, but that doesn't tell you anything about those who didn't. The important question is of those who self-learn, how many of them end up as decent developers, vs those who go through a formal CS ed. Or to re-frame, what's the better course for the majority of people who want to become developers? I don't know of any numbers on this, so can only go off what I've seen, and what I've seen is that for the average person considering dev, a CS education is the best option.
- thinkdevcode 12y ago
  > You witness those who've made it as devs If you read my other comment you also read the part where I said I have been around a lot of terrible developers (worked with, for, under, around, consulted for, etc). These people have "made it" as you said, with long careers in software development, but they are far from competent. Which leads us to your next point: > how many of them end up as decent developers I don't honestly think where or how you start can be used as any sort of determination for how "decent" you are. What matters to me is passion (i've said this a few times already in other comments). When I am hiring and interviewing developers to bring on to the team I barely look at their resumes and I definitely don't look at their education history. Whats more important to me is the initial call, and then the face-to-face. I don't even bother asking any real technical questions. What i'm looking for is a spark; something that tells me this person loves to build and learn. Self-taught or university taught makes no difference at the end of the day, and should never be used as basis to judge whether a person is a "decent" developer or not.

maratd 12y ago

> they compensate by being able to learn quickly and efficiently for the job at hand. We ALL need to be able to learn quickly or we simply don't last. If you've been doing this for a decade or more, you're guaranteed to have that skill in abundance, regardless of your origins. What the OP was getting at is that you get exposed to a host of different ideas and paradigms in a proper CS program. Assembly, lisp/ada/scheme/etc., C/C++/Java, graphics, computer learning, computer architecture, etc. I learned how to code when I was ten, but I would have never exposed myself to any of those things if I didn't focus on CS in college. What does that add? Exactly what the OP said. I know what I don't know. And it's a lot.

thinkdevcode 12y ago
> We ALL need to be able to learn quickly or we simply don't last. I totally agree with that statement. In my response, I meant that self-taught devs have a leg up, so to speak, in the beginning. In the end, we all need to learn quickly and adapt regardless of how we started. > Assembly, lisp/ada/scheme/etc., C/C++/Java, graphics, computer learning, computer architecture, etc. From my own experience as a self-taught developer, I have learned, though maybe never used professionally, almost all of those topics to some degree because I had a keen interest in understanding software and computing in general. I find that self-taught devs, though not a majority, are like that - they want to know and understand because its passion of theirs. Also, i'm not saying that university trained students lack that passion either. I believe at the end of the day it really doesnt matter whether you are self-taught or not, only the passion you bring into learning and understanding is what matters.

paragraft 12y ago

Do basic CS concepts pertain to the job? Well that depends on your job I guess. I consider them the tools of the trade that will outlast all the languages and frameworks that will come and go in a career. And you can intuitively learn them by self-teaching, but it's less certain, and just as importantly, you may not learn them in the same vocabulary as others. CS gives you a shared vocabulary for talking about these concepts with others. Given your other comment I suspect you're speaking from an observation bias leading you to judgement about the general case that doesn't necessarily stack. You witness those who've made it as devs, but that doesn't tell you anything about those who didn't. The important question is of those who self-learn, how many of them end up as decent developers, vs those who go through a formal CS ed. Or to re-frame, what's the better course for the majority of people who want to become developers? I don't know of any numbers on this, so can only go off what I've seen, and what I've seen is that for the average person considering dev, a CS education is the best option.

thinkdevcode 12y ago
> You witness those who've made it as devs If you read my other comment you also read the part where I said I have been around a lot of terrible developers (worked with, for, under, around, consulted for, etc). These people have "made it" as you said, with long careers in software development, but they are far from competent. Which leads us to your next point: > how many of them end up as decent developers I don't honestly think where or how you start can be used as any sort of determination for how "decent" you are. What matters to me is passion (i've said this a few times already in other comments). When I am hiring and interviewing developers to bring on to the team I barely look at their resumes and I definitely don't look at their education history. Whats more important to me is the initial call, and then the face-to-face. I don't even bother asking any real technical questions. What i'm looking for is a spark; something that tells me this person loves to build and learn. Self-taught or university taught makes no difference at the end of the day, and should never be used as basis to judge whether a person is a "decent" developer or not.