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Why do you need back up? Why couldn't you deal with it at the time? Its a shame perhaps that men and women are not typically given the same upbringing, or have

by jheriko 12y ago

Why do you need back up? Why couldn't you deal with it at the time? Its a shame perhaps that men and women are not typically given the same upbringing, or have the same natural tendencies, when it comes to confrontation. Not doing anything about it at the time, then moaning about it after the fact, as a man, is social suicide - its cowardly and makes you look weak. As a woman these same behaviours are lauded as self control and intelligence - and the opposite, as being reactionary and thoughtless. You may be labelled as bossy, a control freak or worse... Neither of these attitudes is quite right... however I do think that people need to stick up for themselves. Don't expect any back up and fight your own corner... but then I am a man, and this is our default attitude. 'being a man' very much means being strong, independent, self-reliant and unassailable... without asking for attention or rewards for doing so. I'm not sure why women shouldn't be encouraged to do the same - these are imo objectively good properties of a successful human being, regardless of gender.

detcader 12y ago
>"Not doing anything about it at the time" For starters, were you there when the events were taking place?
- jheriko 12y ago
  good point. i just assume this based on the moaning happening after the fact...
  - detcader 12y ago
    Why do you use the word "moaning"?
    - jheriko 12y ago
      > Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly. My experience makes this very hard to believe. If that is the case then that should be the topic of complaint, not the individual's actions, and especially in a way so lacking in context and detail. In the context of the workplace this sort of behaviour is bad, not just for the individual, but for the company. I find it very hard to believe that Google would do nothing about it. of course this is just belief. If they are willing to act in support of this kind of inappropriate behaviour then the company should quite rightly get a slamming for it... Part of modern society is not taking the law into your own hands, whether that is giving someone a whack for being a jerk, or making a big public stink about it. I find it very hard to see this as being any better than punching someone in the face because you don't like their attitude.
  - jheriko 12y ago
    i can't reply to your deeply nested comment. i use the word moaning because it fits... i could use 'complaining' but the would mask my disdain for this sort of behaviour. if this were a man, i would be even more aggressive with my language. although i also suspect this sort of thing coming from a man would receive zero attention and immediately be written off... there is a way of dealing with these problems in modern society, and it is not to go rabble rousing with inflammatory social media posts, but to either deal with the problem at the time informally or go through the 'proper' channels. i don't want to defend the harassment, and I think there is a time and a place for this sort of social media attack... this is just very, very far from it. i myself for instance, will do this sort of thing when very many people are being victimised by a large company, because when you are outnumbered and outgunned you have to fight dirty. if it was just me, and one individual in particular, i'd have a much harder time justifying it. none of that makes it any less of a dirty fighting strategy. one guy being a jerk is something to deal with in person, then go to HR if its a real problem that you can't deal with normally, and if that fails the next step is probably to bring legal action against the company for discrimination in the workplace... only if all these things fail and you really are at a disadvantage should you stoop to dirty tactics. imo. my problem here really is that women are not discouraged from this sort of behaviour in the same way that men are, and i'm pretty sure it is to their detriment. in fact, as you can see here, it is being supported...
    - detcader 12y ago
      Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly. To quote myself in another comment, "you disregard the possiblity that Ellis is trying to warn other women more than she is trying to make an accusation that would lead to the appropriate action against him." We men should be the primary focus of the discouraging, because of the historical record and the documented statistics.
- jheriko 12y ago
  (sorry i can't reply to the deeply nested comment)
lentil_soup 12y ago
"'being a man' very much means being strong, independent, self-reliant and unassailable" So you are only a man if you fit this very specific characteristics? I really recommend you watch this documentary: http://therepresentationproject.org/films/the-mask-you-live-in/ http://therepresentationproject.org/films/the-mask-you-live-...
- jheriko 12y ago
  i don't mean it so literally, it is a misfortune of how these words are commonly used to describe character traits that have nothing to do with gender. its nothing about masculinity, or machismo... this concept of 'being a man about it' i think most people understand if you say it that way, which is why i use those words. its a shame that it is such a gender specific term because 'manning up' and 'not being such a girl' are things that i believe women should equally be encouraged to do as men. the fact that the terminology is classically steeped in sexism really sucks because it quite literally turns 'being a man' into a compliment and 'being a girl' into an insult... all people should be encouraged to be strong and self-reliant.

by jheriko 12y ago

detcader 12y ago

>"Not doing anything about it at the time" For starters, were you there when the events were taking place?

jheriko 12y ago
good point. i just assume this based on the moaning happening after the fact...
- detcader 12y ago
  Why do you use the word "moaning"?
  - jheriko 12y ago
    > Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly. My experience makes this very hard to believe. If that is the case then that should be the topic of complaint, not the individual's actions, and especially in a way so lacking in context and detail. In the context of the workplace this sort of behaviour is bad, not just for the individual, but for the company. I find it very hard to believe that Google would do nothing about it. of course this is just belief. If they are willing to act in support of this kind of inappropriate behaviour then the company should quite rightly get a slamming for it... Part of modern society is not taking the law into your own hands, whether that is giving someone a whack for being a jerk, or making a big public stink about it. I find it very hard to see this as being any better than punching someone in the face because you don't like their attitude.
- jheriko 12y ago
  i can't reply to your deeply nested comment. i use the word moaning because it fits... i could use 'complaining' but the would mask my disdain for this sort of behaviour. if this were a man, i would be even more aggressive with my language. although i also suspect this sort of thing coming from a man would receive zero attention and immediately be written off... there is a way of dealing with these problems in modern society, and it is not to go rabble rousing with inflammatory social media posts, but to either deal with the problem at the time informally or go through the 'proper' channels. i don't want to defend the harassment, and I think there is a time and a place for this sort of social media attack... this is just very, very far from it. i myself for instance, will do this sort of thing when very many people are being victimised by a large company, because when you are outnumbered and outgunned you have to fight dirty. if it was just me, and one individual in particular, i'd have a much harder time justifying it. none of that makes it any less of a dirty fighting strategy. one guy being a jerk is something to deal with in person, then go to HR if its a real problem that you can't deal with normally, and if that fails the next step is probably to bring legal action against the company for discrimination in the workplace... only if all these things fail and you really are at a disadvantage should you stoop to dirty tactics. imo. my problem here really is that women are not discouraged from this sort of behaviour in the same way that men are, and i'm pretty sure it is to their detriment. in fact, as you can see here, it is being supported...
  - detcader 12y ago
    Ellis recognized that the proper channels were stacked against her, clearly. To quote myself in another comment, "you disregard the possiblity that Ellis is trying to warn other women more than she is trying to make an accusation that would lead to the appropriate action against him." We men should be the primary focus of the discouraging, because of the historical record and the documented statistics.
jheriko 12y ago
(sorry i can't reply to the deeply nested comment)

lentil_soup 12y ago

"'being a man' very much means being strong, independent, self-reliant and unassailable" So you are only a man if you fit this very specific characteristics? I really recommend you watch this documentary: http://therepresentationproject.org/films/the-mask-you-live-in/ http://therepresentationproject.org/films/the-mask-you-live-...

jheriko 12y ago
i don't mean it so literally, it is a misfortune of how these words are commonly used to describe character traits that have nothing to do with gender. its nothing about masculinity, or machismo... this concept of 'being a man about it' i think most people understand if you say it that way, which is why i use those words. its a shame that it is such a gender specific term because 'manning up' and 'not being such a girl' are things that i believe women should equally be encouraged to do as men. the fact that the terminology is classically steeped in sexism really sucks because it quite literally turns 'being a man' into a compliment and 'being a girl' into an insult... all people should be encouraged to be strong and self-reliant.