7 ms·

> If you work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it

by rwbcxrz 12y ago

> If you work somewhere where the culture is harassing/hostile to women (or to anyone), you should take it seriously and either work elsewhere or try to stop it. A thousand times this. We all have a responsibility to stop workplace harassment. As a manager, it would infuriate me to learn that a member of my team had been treated this way. It saddens me to think that for most people, incidents like these won't reduce people's interest in working for Google.

grandalf 12y ago
The description of Vic Gundotra, if true, is disappointing. One would think that someone so polished and smart would have the sense to realize that such behavior is over the line.
- thomasahle 12y ago
  You mean this tweet? > After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is. I may be entirely clueless, but is this not considered an acceptable topic for after hours drinks? - Edit: I found another Vic tweet that you were more likely referring to: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - grandalf 12y ago
      Women are typically judged/evaluated excessively on the basis of their looks, so his assertion basically says "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks".
      - meowface 12y ago
        Is there a link with a collection of all of the comments?
        grandalf 12y ago
        I scrolled through more of the tweets.
        meowface 12y ago
        * Edit: The comment I was replying to a few posts up was edited, which affected what it looked like I was trying to say, so I deleted my reply. -------------------------------------------- Your parent comment doesn't make any sense regarding the Sasha Grey remark. I assume you're talking about >"You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui. I agree that may be an inappropriate remark depending on the context, but "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks" is complete hyperbole.
        grandalf 12y ago
        Yes that is the comment I was referring to. I am a guy and so I'm not necessarily the best judge of whether that comment would make women feel uncomfortable. But imagine you're sitting there with a bunch of female executives and they are talking about some actor's muscular shoulders and you realize that many of the higher-up males do have muscular shoulders and that they clearly really like that. How will that make you feel if you don't have muscular shoulders. You might feel pressure to go to the gym more, or that your prospects at the company are limited in a way compared to if you did have them. You might even feel a bit insulted if your shoulders were clearly far from muscular, and this is a characteristic that you could actually change by working out. Looks in general are much more a lottery/luck kind of thing. So while looks are definitely part of life and most people are average looking, the expectations that women face regarding looks are different than those faced by men. This just means that they have more pressure to look a certain way and to be judged positively or harshly on the basis of their looks.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - jessedhillon 12y ago
    You know, when you are as high up in a company as he is (and as highly compensated) you should probably assume that you are the face of that company 24/7. Anytime you're chatting with anyone you don't know intimately, in a setting outside of your home or that of a friend, maybe just keep it to polite topics. That's why they're called polite topics. Rightly or wrongly, people are liable to interpret you as representing your company and its culture.
  - acdha 12y ago
    Talking with a subordinate about how hot a porn star is doesn't seem even slightly sketchy to you? Even if you think he was just really excited to have someone using Google+ can you imagine how someone whose career is substantially in your control might wonder about whether there's some other expectation or even whether they can say “I'm not comfortable having this conversation” without consequences? In any case https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574268362051584001 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574268362051584001 makes it clear that there was more to it: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui. > Vic G to Matt S within earshot of me, on a boat in Maui: "doesn't Kelly look amazing heh heh" … and it's looking like this wasn't just an isolated misunderstanding: > anyone who has worked with Vic knows he constantly makes comments about women's appearances. https://twitter.com/jasonpjason/status/574267705714339840 https://twitter.com/jasonpjason/status/574267705714339840
    - JDiculous 12y ago
      None of Vic's compliments, which by the way happened outside the office, constitute sexual harassment. By vilifying innocent remarks, you're only further making men not want to work with women, while promoting a culture of oversensitivity and political correctness. Who wants to work in an environment where they can't make a simple compliment without being publicly ousted as a mysogynist offender? I sure as hell don't.
      - googler98765 12y ago
        > None of Vic's compliments, which by the way happened outside the office, constitute sexual harassment. 1. "Outside the office," is irrelevant (it's ALWAYS wrong to make inappropriate remarks about a colleague or—worse—subordinate), and since the remarks were made at a company offsite they can be considered in a "work environment." 2. You're way off base. Commenting on a colleague's personal appearance to other colleagues is totally inappropriate. Commenting on a colleague's appearance in a bathing suit is totally inappropriate. > By vilifying innocent remarks, you're only further making men not want to work with women I hope men like you feel uncomfortable enough to get the fuck out of this industry. I don't want to work with you, and I'm male! Get lost! > while promoting a culture of oversensitivity and political correctness The problem is that the offenders in these situations aren't AT ALL sensitive to the feelings of others. There are a plethora of examples of men alienating women with their shitty and insensitive comment and attitudes. Reactions to this are not about "oversensitivity" but rather a plea for ANY KIND OF SENSITIVITY AT ALL PLEASE. > Who wants to work in an environment where they can't make a simple compliment without being publicly ousted as a mysogynist offender? If you think these remarks are appropriate and non-sexual then you should probably just keep your mouth shut.
  - mladenkovacevic 12y ago
    I think I read that he said something like "bla bla Sacha Grey is hot"... That is fine.. But then he allegedly goes on to say "Has anyone seen any of her movies?" This is crossing the line. At this point he's asking coworkers to share details of their sexual life with him. Like you wanna know what kinda porn I jerk off to? Get some common sense.
    - JDiculous 12y ago
      It's casual conversation, stop overanalyzing it.
      - mladenkovacevic 12y ago
        It's casual conversation with a close friend or intimate partner. It's not a "group discussion" topic for coworkers with varied backgrounds. I come from a very liberal, non-christian European background and the experience of discussing what kind of pornos I watch in my private time with a boss is getting frighteningly close to a circle jerk. EDIT: then again circle jerks are more common in some places than others.
        JDiculous 12y ago
        I've talked about porn with my bosses and co-workers. It's not really a big deal.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        skj 12y ago
        Actually it sort of is. It sounds like you might be a problem.
        JDiculous 12y ago
        You're imposing your personal conservative standards on others. What if I told you that you can't talk about rap music because it offends me? That'd be incredibly arrogant. I think the problem is you.

by rwbcxrz 12y ago

grandalf 12y ago

The description of Vic Gundotra, if true, is disappointing. One would think that someone so polished and smart would have the sense to realize that such behavior is over the line.

thomasahle 12y ago
You mean this tweet? > After hours, having drinks with Vic and the gang. Vic talking about how G+ was promoting Sasha Grey. Starts talking about how hot she is. I may be entirely clueless, but is this not considered an acceptable topic for after hours drinks? - Edit: I found another Vic tweet that you were more likely referring to: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - grandalf 12y ago
    Women are typically judged/evaluated excessively on the basis of their looks, so his assertion basically says "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks".
    - meowface 12y ago
      Is there a link with a collection of all of the comments?
      - grandalf 12y ago
        I scrolled through more of the tweets.
        meowface 12y ago
        * Edit: The comment I was replying to a few posts up was edited, which affected what it looked like I was trying to say, so I deleted my reply. -------------------------------------------- Your parent comment doesn't make any sense regarding the Sasha Grey remark. I assume you're talking about >"You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui. I agree that may be an inappropriate remark depending on the context, but "yep I/Google evaluate women on the basis of their looks" is complete hyperbole.
        grandalf 12y ago
        Yes that is the comment I was referring to. I am a guy and so I'm not necessarily the best judge of whether that comment would make women feel uncomfortable. But imagine you're sitting there with a bunch of female executives and they are talking about some actor's muscular shoulders and you realize that many of the higher-up males do have muscular shoulders and that they clearly really like that. How will that make you feel if you don't have muscular shoulders. You might feel pressure to go to the gym more, or that your prospects at the company are limited in a way compared to if you did have them. You might even feel a bit insulted if your shoulders were clearly far from muscular, and this is a characteristic that you could actually change by working out. Looks in general are much more a lottery/luck kind of thing. So while looks are definitely part of life and most people are average looking, the expectations that women face regarding looks are different than those faced by men. This just means that they have more pressure to look a certain way and to be judged positively or harshly on the basis of their looks.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- jessedhillon 12y ago
  You know, when you are as high up in a company as he is (and as highly compensated) you should probably assume that you are the face of that company 24/7. Anytime you're chatting with anyone you don't know intimately, in a setting outside of your home or that of a friend, maybe just keep it to polite topics. That's why they're called polite topics. Rightly or wrongly, people are liable to interpret you as representing your company and its culture.
- acdha 12y ago
  Talking with a subordinate about how hot a porn star is doesn't seem even slightly sketchy to you? Even if you think he was just really excited to have someone using Google+ can you imagine how someone whose career is substantially in your control might wonder about whether there's some other expectation or even whether they can say “I'm not comfortable having this conversation” without consequences? In any case https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574268362051584001 https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/574268362051584001 makes it clear that there was more to it: > "You look amazing in that bathing suit, like a rock star." -Vic Gundotra, to me, when I was a junior engineer at Google. In Maui. > Vic G to Matt S within earshot of me, on a boat in Maui: "doesn't Kelly look amazing heh heh" … and it's looking like this wasn't just an isolated misunderstanding: > anyone who has worked with Vic knows he constantly makes comments about women's appearances. https://twitter.com/jasonpjason/status/574267705714339840 https://twitter.com/jasonpjason/status/574267705714339840
  - JDiculous 12y ago
    None of Vic's compliments, which by the way happened outside the office, constitute sexual harassment. By vilifying innocent remarks, you're only further making men not want to work with women, while promoting a culture of oversensitivity and political correctness. Who wants to work in an environment where they can't make a simple compliment without being publicly ousted as a mysogynist offender? I sure as hell don't.
    - googler98765 12y ago
      > None of Vic's compliments, which by the way happened outside the office, constitute sexual harassment. 1. "Outside the office," is irrelevant (it's ALWAYS wrong to make inappropriate remarks about a colleague or—worse—subordinate), and since the remarks were made at a company offsite they can be considered in a "work environment." 2. You're way off base. Commenting on a colleague's personal appearance to other colleagues is totally inappropriate. Commenting on a colleague's appearance in a bathing suit is totally inappropriate. > By vilifying innocent remarks, you're only further making men not want to work with women I hope men like you feel uncomfortable enough to get the fuck out of this industry. I don't want to work with you, and I'm male! Get lost! > while promoting a culture of oversensitivity and political correctness The problem is that the offenders in these situations aren't AT ALL sensitive to the feelings of others. There are a plethora of examples of men alienating women with their shitty and insensitive comment and attitudes. Reactions to this are not about "oversensitivity" but rather a plea for ANY KIND OF SENSITIVITY AT ALL PLEASE. > Who wants to work in an environment where they can't make a simple compliment without being publicly ousted as a mysogynist offender? If you think these remarks are appropriate and non-sexual then you should probably just keep your mouth shut.
- mladenkovacevic 12y ago
  I think I read that he said something like "bla bla Sacha Grey is hot"... That is fine.. But then he allegedly goes on to say "Has anyone seen any of her movies?" This is crossing the line. At this point he's asking coworkers to share details of their sexual life with him. Like you wanna know what kinda porn I jerk off to? Get some common sense.
  - JDiculous 12y ago
    It's casual conversation, stop overanalyzing it.
    - mladenkovacevic 12y ago
      It's casual conversation with a close friend or intimate partner. It's not a "group discussion" topic for coworkers with varied backgrounds. I come from a very liberal, non-christian European background and the experience of discussing what kind of pornos I watch in my private time with a boss is getting frighteningly close to a circle jerk. EDIT: then again circle jerks are more common in some places than others.
      - JDiculous 12y ago
        I've talked about porn with my bosses and co-workers. It's not really a big deal.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        skj 12y ago
        Actually it sort of is. It sounds like you might be a problem.
        JDiculous 12y ago
        You're imposing your personal conservative standards on others. What if I told you that you can't talk about rap music because it offends me? That'd be incredibly arrogant. I think the problem is you.